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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

ROOSTMASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD

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JREX

07-04-2006 04:48:53




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Has anyone attempted to rebuild this type of injector pump? It is on my 310A. The machine will not hold high rpm"s, 2500+. All the fuel lines, filters, etc have been checked for air leaks by the book. The funny thing is, on the top front of the pump there are two screws,if i loosen one the rpm shoot way up, course fuel comes out also. When I close the RPM"s drop. I also opened one of the injector lines in case there was still air.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
John

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jrexx

08-17-2006 05:21:26




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 Re: ROOSTMASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to JREX, 07-04-2006 04:48:53  
thank guys,you cured an otherwise useless machine.we got the new valve,it runs like a top,well almost.seems we were missing the rubber gasket inside the oil filler cover,and the oil was leaking out there.we also had the wrong dipstick,so the new one shows too much oil.could those 2 factors have been the cause for the clanking,loud engine?it seems to have quieted down some now.do you think any damage was done to the engine,we worked it a few hours,not more than 20.also,we now need to change the oil,how many quarts does the 310 take?

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NC Wayne

07-05-2006 21:39:42




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 Re: ROOSTMASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to JREX, 07-04-2006 04:48:53  
I agree with jdemaris, if relieving pressure on the pump housing allows it to work properly the ball check in the top of the pump is clogged. However it doesn't have to be pump internals clogging it, it can simply be a matter of dirty fuel. I don't know where you are, but around the Charlotte, NC area I've had a rash of customers having problems related to dirty fuel. In fact I had to do this same thing for a neighbors Deere the other weekend to get him going when it up and died. As for the ball check you don't have to drill it out, all you need to do is put the fitting in a vise with the male thread down and take a small pin punch and go down through the top and knock the ball and spring right out. If you put a clean rag underneath to catch the parts you should also be able to see what was clogging it up. If it's a black grainy looking material then welcome to the dirty fuel club...I don't know what this mess is but it seems to have a knack for getting past both the filters on the pumps coming out of the mobile tanks as well as the machines filters. The best thing to do if this is your problem is to run it for a day or two with the fitting, without the ball, in place to let the system flush itself a little before replacing it with a new one, otherwise your most likely gonna be back in the same position within a few days when the new ball check clogs up too.

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jdemaris

07-06-2006 05:47:36




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 Re: ROOSTMASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to NC Wayne, 07-05-2006 21:39:42  
I assume that black crud is dead diesel-bacteria. I've had two tractors quit - both plugged with it. Although I'd heard about it years ago, I had never seen it in my own fuel until the last year or so. I've also got a diesel car that started quiting when going up hills. Wound up pulling the fuel tank out, removing the pickup screen and finding it plugged shut with the same black crud. So, now I'm treating all my fuel tanks with biocide - which will keep the bacteria from multiplying. But . . . for the bacteria in the fuel already - all it can do is kill them - and when their little dead bodies pile up - it makes more black crud. In regard to the Roosamaster pump - it's usually pretty easy to figure out where the source of plugging is coming from. If the little rectangular timing window is pulled off - it will be full of what looks like mouse turds- if the plastic ring has come apart. If it's diesel bacteria - it's consistency is much finer (at least in my experience). So fine in fact, it seems to work its way through filters.

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JREX

07-23-2006 15:14:23




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 Re: ROOSTMASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to jdemaris, 07-06-2006 05:47:36  
Well I wanted to thank all for the advice on the roostmaster. We are up and running worked the machine for good 2 hours no problem. It turned out that the return line , the glass ball and spring where jammed up with crud. I knocked out the ball, which did breakup, ahd to pull the spring out, but all the crud was soft, nothing hard. I am going to put in a new valve in a few days. Thanks Again



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JREX

07-16-2006 02:34:57




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 Re: ROOSTMASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to jdemaris, 07-06-2006 05:47:36  
Udate: I cleaned out the glass ball fitting, no spring. All I can think is someone pulled it off and the spring fell out. Funny though I would think the glass ball would float if a spring was needed. Ran the machine with the fuel line disconnected and the fitting off the pump. Ran ok but had to shut down, need to replace a fitting for the pressure valve. Havent pulled the cover off to check for the plate yet, been mowing a couple fields. Live up in North Maine

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JREX

07-06-2006 02:17:10




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 Re: ROOSTMASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to NC Wayne, 07-05-2006 21:39:42  
I had taken the return fitting off the pump to my bench. There was some crud there and inside the fittings. I just soaked and sprayed with some wd40, reinstalled and worked fine. We looked at the ball and the inside, but do not see a spring, nor did one fall out. Is the spring itself attached to the ball or fitting? John



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JREX

07-04-2006 07:09:13




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 Re: ROOSTMASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to JREX, 07-04-2006 04:48:53  
Thank you both for the heads up. I will check on getting either the plastic part or the governor that is all metal.
If I take the pump apart, will there be some calibrations to be done prior to reinstall or are the adjustments done on the machine itself, like a distributor?



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jdemaris

07-04-2006 14:36:29




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 Re: ROOSTMASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to JREX, 07-04-2006 07:09:13  
If you don't mess with any adjusters, all will go back the same as when you took it apart. Max. fuel delivery is adjusted by a bolt against a leaf spring - but you have no reason to touch the bolt if just replacing the plastic weight-retainer ring. If you did - it can be reset to specs. with a 2" micrometer. The fuel timing - advance is adjusted by a 1/4" trimmer screw and lock nut that DOES have an o-ring behind it - but you don't have to touch the nut if you don't want to - and it is external - not internal. The new - i.e. "updated" retainer, that replaces the old one, is not installed automatically during a rebuild. Some shops do it, some don't, and some offer it at an added price. It is of the style used in the later DB2 pumps and still has rubber in it - but is not prone to early failure like the older one-piece ring.

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Bob

07-04-2006 14:56:44




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 Re: ROOSTMASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to jdemaris, 07-04-2006 14:36:29  
Yes, the new ring has rubber or platic in it, but the material is encased in steel, and can't easily get out, even if it were to fail.



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jdemaris

07-05-2006 06:38:22




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 Re: ROOSTMASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to Bob, 07-04-2006 14:56:44  
That's basically what I was alluding to when I said the newer sytle is not prone to early failure. The earlier style dampener used in JDB/DB,DC and early DB2 pumps with the plastic ring has metal drive parts encased in steel although the plastic itself is not. That's why they sometimes run for years after the ring breaks - until either the steel rivets let loose - or metal filings trash the pump. I suspect many older pumps lived longer lives due to the electric shut-off magnet (if equipped) catching the metal debris. In regard to the old-style dampener itself - the material used for it has been changed several times over the years. When General Motors and Ford used that style in early diesel cars and pickups (5.7, 6.2, 6.9), the rings failed faster than in tractors. Roosamaster blamed it on higher under-hood temperatures, and they updated the rubber/plastic for the dampening ring and the umbrella seals on the driveshaft - several times. Somewhere around mid-1985 - the ring was eliminated for use in motor-vehicles. Some pump shops do not update, and some pump guys argue there is nothing wrong with the older one-piece style with the updated plastic or rubber. I can't say I've seen any scientific studies to verify. Also, many pump guys do not ever get to see the tractors the pumps go on, or hear how they are doing 20 years later. I've got three diesels with DB or DB2 pumps of my own that I replaced the one-piece rings back around 1980. I did not update, and they have not failed yet (that I know of). I also have an early 85 Ford F-250 truck with the 6.9 diesel and original DB2 pump - that - as far as I know - has the old style one-piece ring and it's never been apart. Same goes for my 83 diesel Chevy Blazer. Again - this is all anecdotal and not scientific.
I recently rebuilt the DB pumps in my Allis Chalmers HD4 and my Case 580CK. It was routine winter maintenance for both - i.e. they both ran fine. When pulled apart, I found the rings shattered in both - and with those - I did update to the newer style. Necessary or not - who knows? I call it cheap insurance. The update cost and extra $21 if you return a core, or $37 if you buy new with no exchange.

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jdemaris

07-04-2006 05:29:49




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 Re: Hey - do NOT say scr*w in reply to JREX, 07-04-2006 04:48:53  
It is one of the easier pumps to repair - but like anything - nothing is easy if you don't know how to do it.
The JDB or DB Roosamaster/Stanadyne pump is prone to shattering its plastic dampening ring. It's a piece of plastic that holds two-halves of the governor weight assembly together. It gets brittle over time and falls apart. When this happens, it plugs the fuel outlet that connects to the fuel return line. Subsequently, the internal housing pressure gets too high and it won't run properly. When you loosen the scr*w*, you are relieveing that pressure. NOTE - I HAD TO MODIFY THE PREVIOUS WORD WITH STARS - SINCE THE FORUM WORD POLICE SEEM TO THINK I AM BEING LEWD. GREAT TECHNOLOGY!
A simple quick-fix is to take out the return fuel fitting - and drill out the little spring and ball. It serves as a housing pressure regulator. It is probably plugged shut. THIS IS NOT A GOOD FIX. It will, however, buy some time. If you run the machine too long this way, it will eventually ruin the head & rotor in the pump. This sometimes takes years, sometimes only a few months.
If you know somebody that knows how to work on pumps, it only takes about an hour to pull one all apart, fix it, and put it back together. Minimum required parts cost will be around $30. But - like anything mechanical- if you find other parts while in there that are half-worn, and replace them, the price goes up.

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Bob

07-04-2006 05:19:47




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 Re: ROOSA-MASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to JREX, 07-04-2006 04:48:53  
Likely, the plastic damper ring in the pump's internal governor has gotten brittle, and failed into nasty black chunks that look like coffee grounds, and larger.

When one of these pieces finds it's way into the housing pressure regulating valve that is the lower part of the return fitting screwed into the pump's cover, the flow of return fuel out of the pump is restricted, and the engine won't "rev", or will stall altogether.

You can disconnect the return line, and take the fitting out of the pump cover, and then see how the engine runs, taking appropriate precautions 'cause the return fuel will be spilling out.

If it runs better, take a look into the fitting/valve for debris.

Caution, there is a glass check ball in there, which can be broken if you get to rough digging the crud out of the fitting/valve.

If there is crud in the valve, and you get it cleaned out, likely, the engine will run OK until more crud gets in there.

The downside of continuing to run the machine and occasionally cleaning the valve/fitting is that eventually when enough of the governor ring has failed, there will be metal-to-metal contact of the governor parts separated by the plastic ring.

A diesel pump shop will OH the pump, and install an updated governor weight carried that can't come apart and shed plastic pieces.

Of course, a restriction any where else in the fuel return system between the pump and the tank will cause the same symptoms.

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jrexx

08-17-2006 05:38:19




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 Re: ROOSA-MASTER JDB431MD3027 REBUILD in reply to Bob, 07-04-2006 05:19:47  
thanks guys,you cure an otherwise useless machine.you sure know your stuff!one more thing,we found we had a gasket missing for the oil filler lid,which caused oil to leak out there.also,the dipstick was the wrong one one,so it now shows too much oil.could that have been the cause for a clanky,loud engine?do you think there any damage done,we ran it maybe 20 hrs.we now need to change the oil,how many quarts does the 310 need?thank again for the help!

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