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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward normal i

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JoelD

10-09-2006 06:22:34




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Hi all.
I"ve replaced my fluid and filter on my reverser. I hooked up a gauge this morning, warmed her up (she starts great) and did the shift back and forth routine. In reverse I run at 110PSI and it comes right up. In forward, the first few shifts it preasured up much slower than in reverse and came up to about 100PSI when it did come up. Then after 5 or so more shifts reverse worked perfectly, 110 PSI each time, strong engagement, but forward would only preasure up to 70 psi, no wonder the machine is slipping. I"ve got the service manual in front of me. Could it be the reverser adjustment? Not sure how that could be as reverse is working perfectly. OR could it be the "clutch valve, 14 figure 16 page 50 20-14? Or could it be the "forward-reverse clutch valve" number 6 same page reference? (not sure if all manauls are the same, probably not)
Any help is greatly appreciated, I"m anxious to put this thing to work in my yard, got a wife looking for a lawn.
Thank you,
Joel

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Roy Suomi

10-09-2006 20:45:03




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to JoelD, 10-09-2006 06:22:34  
Early in my career with equipment , I bought a 350..Reverser was also bad , didn't realize it..I set a H beam from the top of the rops to an upright in front of the blade and hung a trolly and chainfall from it..Pulled the engine and rested it across the dozer cylinders covered with boards..Then pulled the reverser and set it across the dozer lift cylinders and picked it off the machine with my Lull Bricklift..Worked slick....

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JoelD

10-10-2006 19:02:38




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to Roy Suomi, 10-09-2006 20:45:03  
In one of jdemaris' replies he mentioned a line up of 350's with bad reversers and he wondered if he should've gone to college or gotten drunk. As a CPA I've got eight years of college under my belt, three certifications and my license as a public accountant. I would never come up with half of the ways you guys do when fixing this heavy equipment. For those of you who do not have advanced degrees, you sure as hell have earned them. And the fact of the matter is, in many ways your knowledge is worth a whole lot more than knowledge learned in college. In fact, I bet most of you have as much if not more book and classroom time than me, just in keeping up with the changes and advancements in the equipment. Hoping my daughter picks up a trade along the way, she's three and she knows what a crescent wrench is, a screw driver, hammer, she's got her own tool set and when ever she sees me working on my equipment, she's the first one in there getting greasy. Most importantly, like you guys, I hope she learns the trait of never giving up and figuring out ways to solve problems. Thanks again for all the help. Just the diagnostics alone have helped me a whole bunch.
Joel

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Roy Suomi

10-09-2006 08:51:44




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to JoelD, 10-09-2006 06:22:34  
There is no seperate pressure adjustment for forward or reverse..They should be near identical . If not there is some leakage in the reverser clutch pack for forward..Manifold sealing rings or clutch pack sealing rings are usually the culprit..You might see if the reverser control linkage goes all the way into forward..With the engine off you should be able to feel or possibly hear the detent go into gear when you shift from forward to reverse..

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JoelD

10-09-2006 09:12:28




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to Roy Suomi, 10-09-2006 08:51:44  
HI Roy,
Thanks for the response, I read your other response to a post on a similar issue.

I understand the preassure should be the same.

I am wondering if there could be something with the valves in the reverser accumulator housing?

Maybe something not right or out of whack with the forward reverse clutch valve or the clutch valve?

Unfortunately, I'm not equiped to pull the motor and reverser, I'm a home owner, fresh purchase, I should've been more carefull, I've put less than an hour on the machine. Like of these situations all the gremlins will probably be evident within the first week or use.

Seller was far from honest, I even asked the question up front, will it spin the tracks pushing, he sais yes, five minute into using it at my house, it doen't.

I've resorted to the leave in reverse and manually shifting. Probably not the best practice.

Joel

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jdemaris

10-09-2006 16:18:42




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to JoelD, 10-09-2006 09:12:28  
Reverse is not nearly as strong as forward in the reverser - since it runs through a countershaft, counter-rotating input and output shafts, and spur-gears. That's also why it whines. Even thoughtthe pressures should be equal - sometimes you can work around an internal leak by opening up the rate-of-shift screw. It will sometimes buy you time since it will let more oil flow to the clutch-pack. Anything that can be done to get more flow to the packs will help to work-around the internal leak - but chances are the reverser is just plain worn out. There is a fork inside the reverser control valve (forward-reverse shift fork) that almost always gets a deep wear-groove into it in the forward position. Since you can get to it fairly easily, it's worth checking. Just pull the back-cover off the control-valve assembly. You should also shim up your relief valve to around 130 PSI and see if you get any gains in forward. One more thing to check if the linkage on the reverser control valve that hooks to the clutch pedal. Often the big return spring gets stretched and dirt gets behind the cast-arm on the housing - both of these things prevent the arm from traveling to full-open (engaged) position.

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JoelD

10-09-2006 16:37:49




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to jdemaris, 10-09-2006 16:18:42  
Thank you again for the reply, you and Roy seem to be a team. Guys like you are why a ton of guys like me come back to these forums over and over again, you should be on someones payroll for all the value you add. Ok, time to get off the soap box. I was affraid you were going to write what you wrote. I've been searching the site all day and seems like you and Roy are in agreement on this one.

I'll pull the plate off the accumulator housing. When you say fork, do you mean the clutch valve piston? I am looking at the reverser accumulator housing diagram and it's the only thing that looks like a fork.

I tried the shift speed screw, did not help, just made it shift faster but did not raise the preasure in forward.

Just bought this machine a week ago, frustrating when you trust someone's word, rather than tearing the whole machine down prior to bringing home, learned a leason not to be forgotten. Anyway, want to try to get this right. Any insight into any mechanics in the NH area? Deere rates are scary.

Thank you again,
Joel

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jdemaris

10-09-2006 17:33:53




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 Re: One more thing . . . in reply to JoelD, 10-09-2006 16:37:49  
I just figured I'd mention - that if you get to a point where you really think you're going to tear the reverser out - one thing you ought to check first. Take the reverser control valve assembly off the reverser. It CAN be done with the reverser in place - but it's difficult. I've done many. Once off - there are three little steel tubes that connect the control-valve assembly to the reverser case. Nothing holds them in other than o-rings (once the cover is pulled off). One tube is for oil delivery to the forward clutch pack, one to the reverse clutch pack, and the other (middle one) for lube oil/clutch return. It's possible that an o-ring is blown on one of those tubes. It would be a two-dollar fix with lots of labor and aggravation. All that stuff would have to come off anyway - if you were going to rebuild the reverser. Also, by having the valve assembly off - you can leak-check the separate circuits.

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jdemaris

10-09-2006 17:22:51




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to JoelD, 10-09-2006 16:37:49  
I was wrong about what I said - in regard to the fork. My brain is a little rusty on 350 reversers. The fork that gets the wear-groove in it operates the clutch-valve. Deere calls it a "clutch valve lever" part # T13962. It won't hurt to try jacking the main pressure up - if you can. Deere upped it to 150 PSI in later machines. But - raising the potential pressure does not increase flow - so if you've got a substantial internal leak - pressure cannot get built up WITHOUT increasing flow - since the oil going in has to exceed the oil leaking out in order to crack open the pressure regulating valve.

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JoelD

10-09-2006 17:51:19




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to jdemaris, 10-09-2006 17:22:51  
Thanks, thanks, thanks. I took a good look at the accumulator and the valve body, I can see what you mean my no fun to pull, but a whole lot better than pulling the motor. I'll spend this week getting motivated to pull the valve bodies off this weekend. I really don't have the equipment to pull the motor. I have a little loader (machine weighs 2000 lbs, not nearly big enough to pull the motor out of the deere.

I'll go through the valves, also, I will definately do the clutch pack preasure checks when they are off. Can I do with Air hose? I think I read that you had suggested the preasure check to another member in the past.

I am really hoping to find the old cover from the oil can stuck in something routine rather than the more probable clutch pack leaking (based on all I've read).

The thought of having a dealer break the machine down frightens me and my wallet.

I like the machine though, motor starts great and runs smooth, a little blow by but common I would thing. My Kubota has had blow by for years.

Again, thank you, and the part number reference you provided is invaluable.

Sincerely,
Joel

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jdemaris

10-10-2006 05:52:18




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to JoelD, 10-09-2006 17:51:19  
Pulling the reverser is an awful job- even when you're equipped for it. When I was working as a Deere mechanic, there were times when we had a dozen dead 350s out in the yard - all with blown reversers - and all waiting for me to work on them. It often got me thinking - at the time - that I should of either gone to college - or perhaps became a drunk. What often happens - when pulling a reverser - is you find all kinds of other problems along the way - usually stripped and/or broken bolts, loose dowels, worn out isolator plate and anchors, etc. etc. To put it back togeher right can be very labor intensive. One nice thing though - is - if your's is truly a "B", then it has the best parts inside of it. Several major components inside the reverser were upgraded with the "B", and when older machines are repaired, the "B" parts are retrofitted. The changes mostly relate to the front input shaft/drum and center carrier bearing. This change was to make reverse (in the reverser) stronger. When you go to pull the control-valve assembly off - taking the nuts off the studs won't work - because there's not enough room to slide the assembly off of them (side-frame is in the way). So, you have to get the studs backed-out and pull the assembly out with the studs in it. We had a few that required putting a spot of weld on a nut - so it would spin the stud out - but that's usually not necessary. In regard to leak testing - doing it with air is okay for a "relative" test. By that - I mean comparing the forward tube to the reverse tube. But, keep in mind, that even if all the compenents were new - they would leak with air. It takes oil to seal properly. Since you know that reverse is holding pressure - and forward is not - your relative test is simply to compare the one circuit to the other.

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JoelD

10-10-2006 07:50:40




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to jdemaris, 10-10-2006 05:52:18  
Thank you for the note and details on pulling the valve body. If needed I can do the tack weld, hope not needed. I understand all you've written. My machine says JD 350B on the side, I can probably validate by the serial number. The books I have are for the B and all has matched up with the parts on my machine. I'll pull the valve bodies this weekend and go through the air check for relative differences. I'll also shoot a few photos along the way. Any thought on what it would cost to have the forward pack rebuilt, including the pulling of motor, etc?

Thank you again and again,
Sincerely,
Joel

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jdemaris

10-10-2006 20:12:20




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to JoelD, 10-10-2006 07:50:40  
If things went smoothly, an experienced mechanic should be able to remove the reverser, dissasemble it and fix it, and put it back in - in around 20 - 30 hours. So, I assume it would be well over $2000 in labor. Last I worked at a Deere dealership - our shop-rate was $30 per hour - but things have changed. The problem with the reverser - once all apart - is deciding how far to go. After paying a bunch of labor - would you be willing to only replace enough parts to get it going - or would you replace anything that's worn. That makes a big difference. I will assume - to fix the forward cluth pack - you will need - at least - manifold, rings, clutch drum and piston - a probably a few friction disks. You really ought to put in new pump gears - and - I can assure you that your torsional-isolator will need parts (on the flywheel). It is a common failure point. Deere finally got rid of it - and you can update it - but the upgrade is VERY expensive and requires also buying a new flywheel. Fixing the original is cheaper. It consists of a bunch of springs, anchors, a center-plate, etc. I haven't checked lately, but I've heard Deere prices on the parts are nuts. So - a few years ago I'd say a few hundred bucks for the parts just mentioned. Now - well over a thousand? Obviously I'm guessing - but it seems - Deere et. al. keep track of what parts are being reproduced by other companies - and which parts you can only get from them. If they have an exclusive - they take full advantage and charge outrageous prices. Go to Deere's site and check a few prices yourself - e.g. manifold - T15792, front clutch drum - T16011, piston(carrier)- T16010, one clutch disk - T15801.

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JoelD

10-11-2006 02:55:16




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 Re: JD 350B Reverser preasure, low in forward norm in reply to jdemaris, 10-10-2006 20:12:20  
Thanks for the follow-up, I was affraid that might be the answer.

I've got to follow-up with the previous owner and figure out what we are going to do.

Machine was represented as being in good overall shape, some Undercarriage wear, but nothing like this.

Machine has 2500hours and paid 6500.

Thanks again,
Joel



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