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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

jd420 dozer vs achd3

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lobo

11-07-2006 11:19:49




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how do they stack up against one another




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R.Peck

11-12-2006 17:46:18




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 Re: jd420 dozer vs achd3 in reply to lobo, 11-07-2006 11:19:49  
I concur with all of JDemaris Comments. I will note that I have seen a number of crawlers of each make discussed above and if you use them beyond their design capacity you will inevitable have failures in the final drives.

I would not use an H-3 or HD-3 as a stump dozer!!!! Good luck with your decision.



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steve from mo - dangit!

11-08-2006 09:42:57




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 Different machines for different jobs. in reply to lobo, 11-07-2006 11:19:49  
I think what they guys are telling you is that each one has things it is suited for and other things it is not suited for. If you need some land cleared with lots of brush and stumps, hire it done with a big dozer and then buy the smaller dozer for cleanup and other work.



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lobo

11-08-2006 11:58:01




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 Re: Different machines for different jobs. in reply to steve from mo - dangit!, 11-08-2006 09:42:57  
you could also hire somebody to do the cleanup too. everybody here probably has at least one dozer, some have stopped counting. i have a 420 feel like its too light for the majority of what i do. feel like a d6 is too big to work on and is overkill no matter how nice to have. was wondering how the hd3 would stackup vs the 420 and could i send the 420 down the road.i'm not looking for a duplicate of what i have so yes i'm comparing different machines on purpose.

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jdemaris

11-07-2006 15:18:11




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 Re: jd420 dozer vs achd3 in reply to lobo, 11-07-2006 11:19:49  
HD3 will pull circles around a 420. 420 only weighs around 5000 lbs. and has a 113 cube engine. HD3 weighs 7700+ lbs. and has a 175 cube engine. 420 can pull 4800 lbs. max at a little over 1/2 MPH. HD3 was tested at pulling 5300 lbs. at over 2 MPH. 420 is still a great little crawler, though.



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Lavoy

11-07-2006 18:50:31




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 Re: jd420 dozer vs achd3 in reply to jdemaris, 11-07-2006 15:18:11  
If total pull or push is not your total focus, then I would add that the 420 is a substantially nicer crawler to run. Foot clutch, always live hyd, and coordinated steering make it an easier machine to use in tight quarters or up close to buildings or walls. We have an HD3 with a power 6 way, and in the open it is fine, but in close, a 420 will almost out work it due to ease of operation.
The Allis is a heavier built crawler as well, but some things they really skimped on, and are kind of weak.
Lavoy

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jdemaris

11-08-2006 06:22:09




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 Re: jd420 dozer vs achd3 in reply to Lavoy, 11-07-2006 18:50:31  
I guess I sort of disagree. But. . . I don't own any H3s or HD3s. I do own an HD4 - and other than a bigger engine, I don't think it differs much. Also owned a 420 for many years, and also ran one for years before I owned one. In addition, I fixed many as a Deere mechanic when they were everyday "users" and not collector's items. They ALL have their weak-points. But - ease of use? The HD4 has a foot clutch and live hydraulics. Also - mine has a six-way blade which would be pretty rare on a 420. HD4 has faster hydraulics, a hydraulic reverser that works much better than any Deere 2-cylinder crawler ever had - and that includes the gear-reversers as used in 420s, and later over-center wet-clutch reversers as used in 440s. And the steering clutches? I'm not sure what you mean, unless you are referring to the the declutch and brake being incorporated into one lever in the Deere? I've found that sometimes is a disadvantage. If you find the Deere more convenient to use - I cannot argue about your feelings. But, I find otherwise. I've got over a dozen dozers - all users - and for very tight places - I'll take my little HG Cletrac with home-made tilt and angle blade and aux. underdrive trans. over anything else. In regard to comparing a 420 to an HD3 - it seems to be an apple-and-orange comparison to me. A 1010 compared to an HD3 makes more sense, as does a 350 to an HD4, or a 450 to an HD5 or HD6.

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Lavoy

11-08-2006 12:17:23




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 Re: jd420 dozer vs achd3 in reply to jdemaris, 11-08-2006 06:22:09  
Nobody here was referencing and HD4, his reference was to an HD3. We have an HD3, and if you push in the foot clutch, you have no hyd, I have no idea what it is on an HD4, and did not reference it, nor did he.
As far as an apple to orange comparison, I specifically said if total push is not your issue, so that negates the horsepower issue.
I also find it difficult to believe that from a using standpoint it is more convenient to use a hand and a foot to have to steer instead of using just your hand. I will agree that a 420 is lighter built than an HD3, and an HD3 is lighter built than a D4 and so on, I believe I also made the comment that an HD3 was heavier built. But there are things on an HD3 that are undersized too. A power 6 way would not be rare on a Deere, they did not exist other than a home made add on deal, and I never stated that they had one or could have had one. I also do not believe that a power 6 way is a terribly common item on an H3 or HD3, but obviously they made them.
The reverser on an HD3 is not a hydraulic reverser, it is a wet clutch type reverser similar in concept to the Deere clutch type reverser. It does have a cooler on it, which is good, but is a royal pain to adjust when necessary.
Lavoy

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jdemaris

11-08-2006 13:21:04




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 BS is flying? in reply to Lavoy, 11-08-2006 12:17:23  
To your first comment "Nobody here was referencing and HD4" - appears you are wrong - I made reference to it. In addition, I indicated I agree with the validity your personal feelings on the matter as compared to mine - I offered absolutey no disagreement with the facts you mentioned. I also made it clear that I am not experienced with H3s or HD3s, just the 4s. I just stripped an HD3 for it's undercarriage - and transmission parts - which are the same as for my HD4. I didn't notice (wasn't looking) that it had a hand-clutch. On the general subject- I know MANY people that find hand-clutches more convenient then foot. I am not one of those people. Many grew up with Cat and big AC dozers and/or Deere two-cylinder tractors. And your comment "A power 6 way would not be rare on a Deere" - uh - yeah, it WOULD be rare -regardless of who made it and where it came from. My boss had a high-lift 420 adapted to a 6-way setup. It exisited, it was uncommon, thus it is rare. In my area - just about evey H3, HD3, or HD4 I have seen had a six-way on it. May be a regional preference, but it is reality just the same. You seem to be upset about something - but if you feel a need to aim it my way - don't base it on mis-reading of things I did not say - or did not allude to. And again - my opinion - in no way a result or reaction to anything you said - I consider comparing the two crawlers apples and oranges. You can consider it any way you please.

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Lavoy

11-08-2006 16:14:58




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 Re: BS is flying? in reply to jdemaris, 11-08-2006 13:21:04  
No offense taken or intended.
I meant no one but you referenced an HD4, I said that wrong.
Re-read what I said about the power 6 way on a 420, what I meant was that it would not be rare, it would be non-existent because it was never offered on the 420 by Deere, only the 440 as far as two cylinders. 420 had a manual 6 way but that is it.
H3 is foot clutch, but to keep the hyd live, you need to use the reverser which is a big lever on the LH that looks a lot like a hand clutch. That is one of the reasons I say that an H/HD3 is not very handy. If you can't spare a hand to use the reverser, and use the foot clutch, you lose hyd. If you have your left hand on the steering lever, and your left foot on the brake and need to slow or stop but need hyd, you need to get a hand on the reverser lever. Perfectly functional, but a little tricky in tight quarters.
I may have taken issue with some of your statements, but not offense. This is an opinion board, and everybody has theirs, and the right to express it including you.
As far as your reference to BS flying, taking out what I said that was my opinion as to function, what about what I said was factually BS?
Lavoy

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jdemaris

11-09-2006 09:00:52




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 Re: BS is flying? in reply to Lavoy, 11-08-2006 16:14:58  
At this point - I don't know how to reply in an effective way- and I do not like nit-picking about words - that's for idiot college professors (I've taugh a few adjunct classes - so I guess that qualifies me to say that). Words mean something - including their everyday meaning and/or their OED denotation. They are dependent on context, and the sentences or paragraphs they are used in. And, all can have differing connotations depending on who is talking, and where, and why. I can't control all of that - and since these forum postings are "blind" with no vis-à-vis contact, most people not knowing one another, the words are all I have to go by. So - when you write something my direction, but "mean" something else - yeah, that's often a problem with written communications. I've tried my best to be clear and unequivocal - and I don't believe I wrote anything that is factually incorrect. You did. I also understand that you later qualified the statement. E.g. - you mentioned, twice now, that a six-way blade on a 420 "would be non-existent because it was never offered on the 420 by Deere." My response to that is . . . if someone modifies or constructs a 6-way on a 420 - it does exist. I've seen several, ergo - they are. That, along with most HD3s I've seen having OEM 6-ways, I felt I was qualified to mention it. At the outset - I offered my two-cents based on personal preference and opinion. I've worked on Deere crawlers since the early 60s. My AC experience is more limited. I just stripped an HD3 and was impressed with how heavy-built it is, as compared to some other crawlers. Most of the HD3 heavy-parts direct-fit my HD4 - and with the HD4 I have a lot of experience. Because of the similarities between the 3s and 4s, and because I've met several owners with both series - including a few that were previous small-Deere crawler owners - again - I felt it worth mentioning. From that - I offered my opinion along with any facts I was sure about. I made a point about MY machine being an HD4, not an HD3. And - my opinion about the "apples and oranges" comparison between the HD3 and 420 is based on the #1 the weight difference - 5100 lb. 420 versus a HD3 weighing 7600 lbs.; 420 with a 113 c.i. gas engine and HD3 with a 175 c.i. diesel., 420 being made around 1956-1958 whereas the HD3 being made 1960-1968, 420 with an approx. 6 GPM hydraulic pump at 1000 PSI and the HD3 having a 15 or 25 GPM hydraulic pump at 1625 PSI. And - to avoid any conflicts - I am only talking about the newer Allis Chalmers HD3 based on the D15 ag. tractor. There was an also an earlier
HD3 built ca. early 40s with a Detroit Diesel 2-71 with very limited production.

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lobo

11-08-2006 07:47:14




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 Re: jd420 dozer vs achd3 in reply to jdemaris, 11-08-2006 06:22:09  
the reason i asked was that i have a 420 and feel its more of a light duty dozer (final drives, blade specifically) was wondering if hd3 would be better for stumping, brushclearing etc.



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jdemaris

11-08-2006 12:05:54




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 Re: jd420 dozer vs achd3 in reply to lobo, 11-08-2006 07:47:14  
In my opinion, the 420 is a tinker-toy as compared to an Allis HD3. An, an HD3 is a tinker-toy when compared to a Deere 450. And, a little Cletrac HG is a tinker-toy when compared to a Deere 420. So, much is relative. I spent most of my life working on Deere stuff - also a lot of time using it - and I have a lot of respect for the little Deere crawlers. That being said - my HD4 with 6-way blade will outwork - by a large margin - any 420. An HD3 has a 175 c.i. engine instead of a 200 c.i. but other than that, much is the same as my HD4 including the drivetrain, undercarriage etc. In regard to other suggestions about hiring out? Maybe, but it rarely works for me. Very high prices and often getting stood up don't bide well with me. Last two times I attempted to hire escavators - they did not show when promised - and I hung around with my thumb up my you-know-what. I had one large pond to get built, and a septic system, and after several no-shows, and then - one guy showing up a week later and acting like I had no right to be agitated - I spent $5000 on a very-nice condition HD6 - and I've never been sorry. Sames goes for the rest of my junk. It's there when I need it - never stood me up or overcharged me (unless I figure in a few breakdowns). I've got some property and a cabin in the Adirondack Mountains - where work is supposed to be scarce. I tried to hire a dirt-digger up there and went through the same crap. So, I trucked my little Ford 4000 Indutrial hoe and loader up there - and it's staying there. It has been a God-send to have it when I need it. If you're a guy with one-job in mind - then perhaps it's best to hire. But, if you like doing things on your own, and plan on staying that way for awhile - AND can fix things yourself - owning a crawler can be a good investment.

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