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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

cam timing/injection pump???

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mightyvalk

11-26-2006 19:07:03




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OK. How good would a big 844 allis motor run if the cam timing was out. Heres what I got.
1. 884 cu inch Fiat Allis 25000 MKII motor.
2. I have had the injectors set at the correct pop off.
3. I have had two different injection pumps on it.
4. No air intake restrictions
5. I have tried every timing mark 6 ways to sunday on both injection pumps.
6. Motor has new pistons,liners,rings and heads done.
The motor starts with little shot of starting fluid. Once it warms up it idles fairly well. It seems like it might be down on power. But under load it just pours the black smoke out.

If the cam was out of time would it still run that good but have those symptoms?

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bighead

11-30-2006 16:11:07




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 Re: cam timing/injection pump??? in reply to mightyvalk, 11-26-2006 19:07:03  
Could you have a boost leak at an intake gasket or where the turbo goes into it?



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mightyvalk

12-01-2006 13:08:03




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 Re: cam timing/injection pump??? in reply to bighead, 11-30-2006 16:11:07  
Nope...No leaks..It is getting cold now...I don't know how much more I will get to work on it.



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Bob Blue

11-27-2006 10:16:17




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 Re: cam timing/injection pump??? in reply to mightyvalk, 11-26-2006 19:07:03  
Check on page 2 of this forum on HD21 Timing specs. which I sent to a person and you will be able to check if cam is in time with the crank. The pump timing is also listed there. If everything checks, then do you have correct pump, mine is closed port pump I think have to check, Is this a diesel torque converter. Have some more ideas. Have one 21 and 2 21as withe mark 2 engines. Bob Ohio



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mightyvalk

11-27-2006 10:32:10




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 Re: cam timing/injection pump??? in reply to Bob Blue, 11-27-2006 10:16:17  
Yeah I got the specs in my manual for valve opening and closing. I just have to put a dial indicator on it. It is a diesel torque converter.



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Bob Blue

11-27-2006 12:57:14




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 Re: cam timing/injection pump??? in reply to mightyvalk, 11-27-2006 10:32:10  
I remember our talk about the porting on the pump on red power.
When you said seemed to lack power, thought governor linkage to fuel rail needs to be increased,then to much black smoke, to much fuel and that cancels out the fuel rail adjustment. You have eliminated the air restrictions, are we positive it has the correct turbo. If every thing else is right, it has to be an air or fuel problem. The reason I asked about the Torque converter, my 1st 21a had a plugged return line from the converter to the tank. Gauge was faulty and when i put in a new one , it would peg at 100 lbs.. The converter is fed from the injector pump into converter then to tank. There is a restrictor on injector pump out put line to the converter which keeps the pump at 60 lb internal pressure and another restrictor after the converter in the return tank line to keep the converter at 60 lb pressure at full power. My fuel pressure metering is before the restrictor on the out put side of the converter. If the return line system is pluged because of old fuel, like mine was, the internal pump pressure could exceed 100 lbs or more because the excess cannot get out the injector pump. Could this cause to much fuel at the injector? This how we turn up the farm tractor pumps, tighten the spring down for more pump pressure. There is a fuel pressure check port where you can use a guage to check intern pressure of the pump. Just some more ideas for you. If everything is timed right, it has to be to much fuel, or not enough air, or maybe both.. Bob

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mightyvalk

11-27-2006 15:41:44




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 Re: cam timing/injection pump??? in reply to Bob Blue, 11-27-2006 12:57:14  
Well I know the turbo is right.
I know there is no restrictions of air (no air filter) and I even pulled the intake manifold all the way off and checked it.
The pressure in the converter is good at 40-50lbs.
I even installed a needle valve on the tank return so I could dial it in.
What gets me is my 25000 series injection pump and the 16000 series injection pump perform almost identical. They both black smoke alot under load which make me think it is something else. I have worked on alot of motors but I haven't seen anything like this. It just doesn't seem like it is getting enough air (turbo or not I tested that). That why I was wondering about the cam timing. But everybody says I would have bent pushrods if that were the case. It will spin the tracks so its making ok power. But I feel like I am pulling a sled with a superstocker.

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Bob Blue

11-27-2006 19:12:08




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 Re: cam timing/injection pump??? in reply to mightyvalk, 11-27-2006 15:41:44  
If you feel you got everything correct, and the power, I would take the top off the governor and back the fuel rail linkage down a degree or two, put the cap back on and try a push and see what happens on the smoke. I had to replace a governor on dozer 2 and had to lengthen the fuel rail to get the power. I only show mediun smoke if I have a full blade, starting to pull down , and start adding the last 100 hp to the push. Its when that final 100 horses start working it gets blacker. But not as black as burning rubber tires. Keep us posted Bob Chillicothe

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Bob/Ont

11-26-2006 20:41:05




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 Re: cam timing/injection pump??? in reply to mightyvalk, 11-26-2006 19:07:03  
If the cam was not timed right on a diesel engine you would have some bent push rods and dammaged valves. If the valve clearance is still good the cam is timed okay. The pump is another issue. Have to get the part# off of the pump and the engine serial#, make sure they match and a fuel shop should give the correct timing for it.
Later Bob



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Roy Suomi

11-26-2006 20:18:12




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 Re: cam timing/injection pump??? in reply to mightyvalk, 11-26-2006 19:07:03  
It's not likely to run at all if cam is out of time..But I guess anything is possible.. If the injector pump is driven off of the oil pump or accessory drive , there might be a timing issue there..I saw a Minnie Moe bend pushrods because the cam was out of time..If I remember correctly it was a 900 series diesel tractor...



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