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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't start

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RussT

01-02-2007 10:20:35




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My JD 450c dozer won't start. The engine seems to turn over slower than it should. Since the starter solenoid housing was broken I replaced it thinking it may be the problem (thanks for the help on that). I checked the voltage while cranking and at the battery I got around 10.4 volts and at the solenoid terminal I got around 9.6 volts. The reading would fluctuate on both ends about .5 volts or so as a cranked it. These numbers seem to indicate the batteries are good but the engine doesn't seem to turn over fast enough to start it. I don't know if maybe the starter needs rebuilding but I don't know what else to check. Even though it never wants to start in cool weather it was 70 degrees when I last tried and it just sounds like the batteries are weak. Any suggestions on a next step would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
RussT

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RussT

01-03-2007 07:55:07




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 Re: Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't s in reply to RussT, 01-02-2007 10:20:35  
Thanks for everyone's help. I'll take the starter off and have it checked. I don't kow how well the starter is sealed but looking back, I've sunk the dozer in mud twice in the last two years. That may have something to do with it's performance now. Thanks again,
RussT



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jdemaris

01-02-2007 18:23:07




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 Re: Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't s in reply to RussT, 01-02-2007 10:20:35  
The starter should turn it over fairly well if voltage is over 9 volts at cranking. The system is designed to work at 9 - 10.5 volts for normal operation. On a hot day with two or three huge batteries you could get the cranking voltage up higher - but I'm getting off point. Testing is not always easy. The way to know for sure - is - to load test the batteries and ascertain, for sure, they are putting out suffient amperage at rated voltage. If I was on a "road call", first thing - I'd load check your machine at the battery post on the solenoid. If #1 ample power is available there, and #2 voltage does not drop lower than 9 volts when cranking - than it sounds like your starter is not drawing enough current - and therefore not creating the needed force to spin you engine over fast. To the converse, if your starter was damaged in such a way that it drew too MUCH current, the cranking voltage would get even lower than 9. Also, if your batteries were the problem, again - cranking voltage would be low. It's a pretty easy job to just pull the starter off, take it apart, and look at it. You'll probably find worn out brushes, burnt up brush holds, perhaps a worn-out center-bearing, rubbing armature, etc. One other note- 450C calls for a bigger starter than the older 450s and has more cranking amps. The proper 450C starter is a 900 amp unit and the case is straigh - no step-down on back. If the starter does have a step-down, i.e. two diameters, it's a older 450 or a 350 starter rated at 700 amps.

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MN Scott

01-02-2007 17:52:37




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 Re: Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't s in reply to RussT, 01-02-2007 10:20:35  
The voltage sounds a bit low but if your brushes or bearings are bad it would pull a lot of power resulting in low readings. I think the sign here is the copper bar getting hot, it should not unless your cranking for some time. I just got my starter back in my 450C today and fired it up. Mine started before but didn't sound right. Starter shop charged $65 to totally rebuild it, money well spent. Its not to bad to remove, just getting the bottom bolt started is a bear. Mark and unhook the wires then remove the bottom bolt thru the hole in the siderail with a 9/16 wrench. The top one can be removed with a socket and 12 in exstention. When you reinstall make sure everything is clean and put in the top bolt first and tighten it up. With my big hands I had to start the bottom bolt with A finger and a screwdriver. A good starter should spin the engine effortlesslly and it should start in the first few revolutions. Good Luck.

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Old Magnet

01-02-2007 12:38:22




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 Re: Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't s in reply to RussT, 01-02-2007 10:20:35  
If the batteries are good it's time to look into the starter. If the brushes are about gone you won't make cranking speed. If you are drawing high amps (smoking terminals)the bearings could be shot which lets the armature drop to where it rubs on the pole shoes.



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RussT

01-02-2007 14:09:23




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 Re: Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't s in reply to Old Magnet, 01-02-2007 12:38:22  
Thanks. In fact the first thing I noticed was smoke coming from where the copper bar from the starter connects to the solenoid. It gets very hot. And then I noticed smoke coming from the cable from the battery to the main power switch. I guess the copper bar is supposed to get hot and that is whay it is not insulated. I guess the cable is getting hot for the same reason, high current draw. How hard is it to remove the starter? I hear the bolts are hard to get to.
Thanks again,
RussT

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Bob/Ont

01-02-2007 14:54:09




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 Re: Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't s in reply to RussT, 01-02-2007 14:09:23  
Russ, if you see smoke you have a very heavy draw. Likely the batterys are fine since boosting makes no difference. Before you take the starter off, take all cable connections apart, clean good and put back Tight. That might do it but if it doesn't do a Voltage Drop test one cable at a time. Hook volt meter to each end of each cable (Pos and ground)one at a time while cranking. Should read about .5 volt per cable. High volt reading means resistance. If all cables are good cchecl out starter. Low voltage and slow cranking will fry the starter.

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RussT

01-02-2007 15:44:10




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 Re: Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't s in reply to Bob/Ont, 01-02-2007 14:54:09  
Thanks Bob. I cleaned the connections at the solenoid and batteries. I did not clean connections at the main off/on switch. At one time I ran the jumper cable positive straight from the batteries to the solenoid terminal and the negative from the batteries to a bolt on the starter housing. I know my jumper cables aren't as large as the dozer power cable but it still made no difference. I did a voltage drop test by measuring voltage at the battery and then the at the solenoid while cranking and there was about .8 to 1.5 difference. I did notice that the voltmeter jumped around as I cranked the engine. I wandered if that indicated something going on in the starter. The jump on the meter appeared to be only about .5 to 1 volt. The smallest voltage difference when cranking was about .8 volts.

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Bob/Ont

01-02-2007 17:03:59




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 Re: Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't s in reply to RussT, 01-02-2007 15:44:10  
Russ, you likely are into a starter repair but clean every end of every cable first, Even the copper bar going into the starter from the sol, if you can get it off.Also check voltage drop across the main On Off switch too. Then you are sure. When you get the starter off, you can put it in a large vise and use the jumpers to power it and see how it spins. A push button switch with wires and clips is handy to spin it.
Later Bob

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John Wood

01-02-2007 11:11:44




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 Re: Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't s in reply to RussT, 01-02-2007 10:20:35  
You should have around 14 volts at the posts on your battery, give or take a little , for a fully charged battery. I don't know what you would get at the solenoid, but I can't see the voltage dropping very much. So, on that premise I would say that your batteries are low or you don't have a good ground.

HTH.

J



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jdemaris

01-02-2007 18:11:43




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 Re: Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't s in reply to John Wood, 01-02-2007 11:11:44  
That crawler is designed to crank at around 10 volts. Most diesels with 12 volt cranking systems are designed to crank a 9.5 - 10.5 volts.



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RussT

01-02-2007 12:00:38




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 Re: Help! replaced 450C solenoid but still won't s in reply to John Wood, 01-02-2007 11:11:44  
Thanks John,
I've recharged my batteries two times trying to get the 450 started but I always have the same results. Even when I connect jumper cables to the freshly recharged batteries it makes no difference in cranking speed. The batteries are only two years old and even though my alternator doesn't work I think they are still in good shape since I don't use the tractor much. I may be wrong though. If I remember right the manual says I should get around 9 volts or so when starting so I'm thinking the batteries are okay or close to it.
Thanks,
RussT

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