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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

JD310A Backhoe Hard Starting

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Edward1990

01-27-2007 20:36:05




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Engine had blow by but was running with a few shots of ether. The temperature is about 20 degrees colder than when I last heard it run and now about 35 deg. Will not fire, pop, even with ether. Cranks over relativly fast and seems as though it should at least hit on the ether. I just bought the backhoe and have just got it home. I am trying to start it to assess any other problems. Could the cylinders be dry and not sealing enough to give enough compression. Is there something I can put in the cylinders to slightly increase compression or possibly free up rings? I cannot find anything like glow plugs or intake heater. I am really confused that it will not at least hit on the ether. Any thoughts?

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Dave in Tx

01-30-2007 19:58:57




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 Re: JD310A Backhoe Hard Starting in reply to Edward1990, 01-27-2007 20:36:05  
pull the intake hose from the intake manifold, get a pump oil can and pump engine oil in it while cranking. that will get the oil in it. if they used ether and didn't get it started it will be so dry it may not have much compression.



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TomNTex

01-28-2007 21:50:38




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 Re: JD310A Backhoe Hard Starting in reply to Edward1990, 01-27-2007 20:36:05  
Edward,
I have an 80 model 310A and have had it for about four years using it around the farm. I just wanted to let you know there is a technical manual for the backhoe on Ebay at the moment. If you don't already own one you might really consider getting a tech manual. Don't see too many of these used ones for sale and new ones are about $250. It is really an invaluable investment. I bought mine through Ebay a couple years back and it has really helped me many many times troubleshooting the hydraulics. Also for future reference look back through the archived post from Roy Suomi. He along with a few others are a wealth of knowledge on these machines.

Thanks

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Edward1990

01-29-2007 06:07:33




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 Re: JD310A Backhoe Hard Starting in reply to TomNTex, 01-28-2007 21:50:38  
Thanks. I put a watch on that TM. I am sure it will come in handy



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jdemaris

01-28-2007 06:38:21




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 Re: JD310A Backhoe Hard Starting in reply to Edward1990, 01-27-2007 20:36:05  
It it's a 310 diesel, and someone's been using a lot of ether to start it - by spraying into the air-cleaner (instead of using an OEM injection system), it's very likely the top rings on the pistons are shattered to pieces. It's very common on Deere engines with square piston rings. Usually at first, the rings on one piston get broken, and it then takes even more ether to get it started, and then eventually they all break. Once all the top rings are gone, it will still and run - if it's warm enough and you put a lot of ether into it - and almost run good when it gets good and hot - but there will be smoke and a lot of blowby. Deere later updated most of the engines to Keystone chrome-moly rings that were much harder to break - but your engine does not have them. There are other things that can also cause the problem, e.g. low fuel delivery - but most of time it's broken rings. My neighbor shattered his three times in the past three years - mainly because he refused to use a coolant block heater. After the last rebuild - he finally installed a heater instead. You could pull the head off that engine in an hour - and then know for sure what is wrong. You could also do an "in-frame" rebuild in one day - replacing all the main and rods bearings, pistons, rings, and sleeves.

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Edward1990

01-28-2007 12:41:25




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 Re: JD310A Backhoe Hard Starting in reply to jdemaris, 01-28-2007 06:38:21  
That sound like what may have happened. When the fellow i bought the backhoe tried to start his tractor in order to push the hoe up on my trailer he used about 3/4 of a can of starting fluid and it took him about an hour to start it. I would guess he has done the same to the backhoe. How do I go about removing the sleeves and reinstalling them during a frame on rebuild? Secondly, what kind of pressure and volume do I need at the injectors, just in case the problem is fuel related? also, even if I have low fuel pressure would the engine not fire with the ether?

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jdemaris

01-28-2007 15:22:16




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 Re: JD310A Backhoe Hard Starting in reply to Edward1990, 01-28-2007 12:41:25  
The engine has wet-sleeves. When all is clean, they push in by hand. When old and corroded,
you never know. Most of the time, you can push on them from the bottom and they pop out the
top pretty easy. You can do it with a stick of wood (like a hammer handle) and either rap with
a hammer or push up with a bottle-jack. Once in awhile, they can get really stuck. I've had a
few that a bottle jack pushing on a sleeve lifted the crawler up in the air - instead of pushing the
sleeve out - but that's rare. If you get one that bad, borrow - or make a sleeve-puller. It's just a
piece of threaded rod that catches the sleeve bottom and pulls it up through the top. In regard to the injection pump? I cannot tell you a good way to check it when it's not running. Pressure has little to do with it - pressure is determined by the fuel-injectors, not the pump. But,
if the fuel delivery is low - i.e. too little volume of fuel being injected - it will be very hard
starting. Once running, it's would also be low on power. I suggest you do the following checks on the pump. First - make sure power is getting to the
terminal on top. If so, you should hear a click inside the pump whenver the IGN key is on. Second - pull the timing window off the side of the pump. It's a little rectangle held by two
slotted screws. Once off, and the fuel gets done pouring out, look for any debris inside. If you
see little dark colored bits that look like mouse turds - then you've got a broken dampener
inside the pump. It will need to be pulled off and fixed. On other check you can make if desired
- get and injector out of the engine (if you can), leave it out of the engine but hook it back to the
injection line. Then crank the engines and see if it sprays fuel. A person with experience can do an in-frame motor-job on that machine in one day. That's not
counting doing any valve work on the head. If you wish to do that too - that of course takes
more time. When I was on the road doing such repairs - very often I'd just pour some kerosene
down the intake and exhaust ports and see if the valves leaked badly or not. If not - if it was
what the customer wanted - the head would go back on, as is. But, there were usually "rush"
jobs out in the middle of nowhere. In the shop, I'd always pull the head apart do the valves - it
adds a few hours to the job. But, you have to be careful, you cannot grind the seats too deep
like with a gas engine - because it changes the installed valve depth - which causes hard cold
starting. In regard to the fuel injection pump - again- someone with experience can take it apart, fix
what's needed, and put it back together in about one hour. Parts cost can range from $50 to
$100 in most cases. If you send the pump out to a shop - it's probably cost you around $400
-$600 regardless if it only needs $30 in parts or $100.

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Edward1990

01-28-2007 16:11:48




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 Re: JD310A Backhoe Hard Starting in reply to jdemaris, 01-28-2007 15:22:16  
Thanks Jdemaris. I will try all your suggestions and feel pretty confident you nailed the problem. I really appreciate your help. Edward



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JoelD

01-28-2007 06:28:07




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 Re: JD310A Backhoe Hard Starting in reply to Edward1990, 01-27-2007 20:36:05  
Hi,
Sorry for ignorance, not sure if gas or diesel.
Gas, oil in cyls will help with compression, I've used engine oil in the past, a little bit in each spark plug, of course coule foul plugs but worked on an old thunderbird I once had. Could be points and condensor, should check for spark.
If diesel, when cold it's tough, I've never actually resorted to either on a diesel motor. I would try to warm the block, light bulb under motor and then horse blanket over the whole thing used to work for my grandfather. My dozer has fittings for coolant interface via quick connect, never used though.
Good luck,
Joel

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Bob Blue

01-28-2007 07:06:55




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 Re: JD310A Backhoe Hard Starting in reply to JoelD, 01-28-2007 06:28:07  
Neighbor had a Case diesel same way. Pulled out the air filter and shot WD-40 into air intake until compression built up and white smoke then small shot of either Bob



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Edward1990

01-28-2007 12:45:30




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 Re: JD310A Backhoe Hard Starting in reply to Bob Blue, 01-28-2007 07:06:55  
I will try doing that to get her running. Before I rebuild it I would like to make sure there aren't some other problems also. Thanks



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