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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

a little Off Topic -F350 pulling JD450 up a hill

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RussT

04-19-2007 15:07:04




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I have a 1981 F350 that I use to pull a gooseneck trailer with my JD450c crawler dozer. My brother wants me to bring it to his house just down the road to do a little work. The only problem is his driveway is at about a 30 degree incline off of a state highway. I don't pull my crawler enough to know if the F350 will have a problem pulling up the hill. I also don't have trailer brakes. The drive is paved but my truck is old and the timing is off a little. It is a dually with a 400 engine and an automatic transmission. Any WARNINGS would be appreciated. Thanks, RussT

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Case450

04-24-2007 09:36:13




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 Re: a little Off Topic -F350 pulling JD450 up a hi in reply to RussT, 04-19-2007 15:07:04  
I pull my Case 450C on a ten ton tri-axle float with a 2002 GMC Sierra 3500 Diesel Dually with nair a problem. Steep hills I put her in four wheel drive and off I go with out any problems. I must agree with one fella on here where traction is a major concern. If you can't bite you can't pull. Pull her up the hill and see what happens! lol



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TimWafer

04-20-2007 11:36:47




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 Re: a little Off Topic -F350 pulling JD450 up a hi in reply to RussT, 04-19-2007 15:07:04  
I would think traction would be your biggest obstacle. I once pulled a trailer & load that weighed around 20,000 pounds behind my ¾ ton diesel 4x4 pickup up a very steep, sorta paved back road. I can’t say for sure what incline it was but very steep. Power was not a problem but even in 4-wheel drive I was squealing the tires. I did eventually make it since I feared backing back down more than trying to continue but wouldn’t do it again.
I would unload it at the bottom and drive it up.

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Mike M

04-20-2007 09:50:08




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 Re: a little Off Topic -F350 pulling JD450 up a hi in reply to RussT, 04-19-2007 15:07:04  
That 450 is one heck of a load for a F350. I would not try going up that hill. Unload at the bottom and drive the crawler up. Use some old planks to protect the pavment ares.



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David - OR

04-20-2007 09:22:48




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 Re: a little Off Topic -F350 pulling JD450 up a hi in reply to RussT, 04-19-2007 15:07:04  
I doubt it is really a 30 degree incline. A 30 degree incline is a 57% grade!

If the machine weighs 8 tons and the gooseneck weighs 2 tons, and the truck weighs 3 tons, we have 13 tons trying to go up the hill.

The amount of force parallel to the direction of travel will be 13 * sine(30) or 6.5 tons. If we assume 10% of the loaded trailer weight is on the gooseneck (on the flat), then the truck exerts a force of (3 * 0.1 * 10) * cosine(30) normal to the road, or 3.46 tons.

If we assume a 4WD truck with the transfer case locked, and we optimistically hope for a coefficient of friction of 1.0 between the tires and the pavement, then the maximum tractive force the truck can exert on a 30 degree slope is 3.46 tons. With 3.46 tons pulling up, and 6.5 tons pulling back, the answer is that you have no chance at all of pulling the trailer up the hill. The tires will slip on the pavement. It doesn't matter how much power you have.

Let's refigure for a 30% grade (still really steep).

This is a 17 degree slope.

Force pulling parallel to the road is 13 sin (17) or 3.7 tons. Force normal to the pavement is 4 * cos(17) or 3.8 tons. At a coefficient of friction of 0.5 the truck can exert a maximum of 1.9 tons of tractive effort. You need a coefficient of friction of almost 1.0. Still can't do it, the tires will spin hopelessly.

Try again with a 20% grade. Even that looks really steep, most "mountain roads" are around 10 or 11 percent. A 20% grade is a slope of 11 degrees.

Force parallel to the road is 13 * sin(11) or 2.5 tons. Force normal to the road is 4*cos(11) or 3.9 tons. You need a coefficient of friction of 0.64 or higher or the tires will spin. Not very likely -- a figure of 0.5 is about the limit to expect.

The moral of the story is that pulling trailers up steep grades is very difficult -- the weight of the load does not help in developing tractive force, but instead parasitically pulls back on the whole works. If the dozer were on a flatbed truck, and thus helping to load the driving wheels, that works a whole lot better.

The math is pretty inescapable. It ain't gonna work, regardless of whether it is safe or not, unless the driveway is actually more like a 10 percent grade.

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RussT

04-19-2007 18:12:49




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 Re: a little Off Topic -F350 pulling JD450 up a hi in reply to RussT, 04-19-2007 15:07:04  
Just to clarify, I only use the trailer to move the crawler around my property or to my house a half mile away if I need to store it or work on it. Everything is dirt roads around my part. My brother's driveway is very short but I didn't want to start up and then back back into the road.
Thanks



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billdeere

04-19-2007 16:29:59




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 Re: a little Off Topic -F350 pulling JD450 up a hi in reply to RussT, 04-19-2007 15:07:04  
are you worried about moving it or getting it up the driveway?



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RussT

04-19-2007 19:20:01




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 Re: a little Off Topic -F350 pulling JD450 up a hi in reply to billdeere, 04-19-2007 16:29:59  
I'm really wondering if my truck has the power to pull that load up the 30 degree incline from a dead stop.



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135 Fan

04-19-2007 15:59:04




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 Re: a little Off Topic -F350 pulling JD450 up a hi in reply to RussT, 04-19-2007 15:07:04  
Your pulling a machine that weighs 8 or 9 tons with a 1 ton without trailer brakes? That seems pretty scary to me besides being illegal. Just my thoughts. Dave



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Bob/MS

04-19-2007 15:42:49




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 Re: a little Off Topic -F350 pulling JD450 up a hi in reply to RussT, 04-19-2007 15:07:04  
What are the positives and negatives. If it goes bad what will be minimum / maximum damage. Bottom line, If not sure, don't try it!



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rick robert

04-19-2007 18:01:18




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 Re: a little Off Topic -F350 pulling JD450 up a hi in reply to Bob/MS, 04-19-2007 15:42:49  
I have pulled my 450 d with a borrowed truck that the brake controller did not work on. I would not want to do what you contemplate. With trailer brakes -no problem but why not unload at the highway and drive the dozer up the hill? Before I get flamed - I have a class A licence, Know the rules and according to texas dps, am legal when I pull my dozer with my gmc truck and gooseneck.
rick



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