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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

JD 450C engine surges/ no go cold

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rdsar2k

08-27-2007 07:21:57




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Hello and thanks in advance. My 450C type 4219TT 01 Serial # 507104T has been a strong running machine with bugs that have been getting worse. Occasionally when I first start it it won't engage the HLR in any position until I idle it for 5 or more minutes. Once it engages the first time no more issues. I keep the clutch adjusted to a smooth shift and the power is strong in all gears and ranges.
Second issue
After running for 3-4 hrs with the temp gauge running normal the engine will suddenly surge to a high rpm. Once it starts surging the RPMs become errratic. The engine won't turn off with the key at this point and I have to stall it to shut it down. When I return to it the next day all is fine and the pattern repeats. I flushed the tank out thinking the fuel is contaminated changed the air filters and fuel filter. All fluids have been changed out. I'm beginning to suspect the temp gauge is giving a false reading but the engine does not seem to be too hot I.E the radiator is topped off with fresh fluid and the thermostat is new and the radiator is not boiling or radiating alot of heat.

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rdsar2k

09-13-2007 09:49:23




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 Re: JD 450C engine surges/ no go cold in reply to rdsar2k, 08-27-2007 07:21:57  
Well I got the fuel injection pump tools from Thompson, rebuilt the pump (though there was nothing I found wrong with it. The regulating valve did have teflon tape in it. I updated the weight retainer as suggested also. I found the vent in the tank after I drained it and was able to look at it closely. Sure enough it was clogged as suggested here also. The valve was clear. The transmission screen was clean but I replaced it anyway. Fixed all the wiring hack jobs and replaced all the rubber hose couplings. Set the valves replaced the mircon filter in the hydraulic system and changed the final drives fluid. In a nut shell 1000 hr service plus. I haven't started it yet but I think the vent plug and teflon tape are my surging issue. No smoking gun on the transmission no go cold yet.

Any more suggestions for the long engagemet time when cold?

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WisAndy

08-29-2007 20:40:56




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 Re: JD 450C engine surges/ no go cold in reply to rdsar2k, 08-27-2007 07:21:57  
I experienced the same engine symptoms with a plugged fuel tank breather: small tube that can be seen under the fill cap.

As far as the cold condition with the trans, if there is a loud hissing sound when you remove the trans filler, with the engine running, there may a leak between the trans pump and control valve. On the machine that I run, there were two tubes in the HLR compartment that had lost some o-rings. jdemaris may be able to explain the plumbing in this compartment better than I can.

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rdsar2k

08-30-2007 10:45:33




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 Re: JD 450C engine surges/ no go cold in reply to WisAndy, 08-29-2007 20:40:56  
There is a strainer that has a tube on is that is not clogged. I checked the parts breakdown for this models fuel tank and no breather is called out. Is it ok to run the engine with the filter removed? Or are you talking about the dipstick?



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WisAndy

08-30-2007 20:23:32




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 Re: JD 450C engine surges/ no go cold in reply to rdsar2k, 08-30-2007 10:45:33  
On my fuel tank, when the cap is removed there is a small tube next to the dip stick but inside of the opening. When I blew on this tube with compressed air there was a small pop. The engine symptoms were gone ever since. If you can, try to run with the cap loose to see if the symptoms go away. If you still have trouble then the problem is with some of the other recommendations. Good Luck.



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rdsar2k

08-30-2007 10:58:10




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 Re: JD 450C engine surges/ no go cold in reply to rdsar2k, 08-30-2007 10:45:33  
Also I don't have a local diesel service near by so I'll be buying all my stuff on line. I do have a JD dealer but they're not to keen on helping a wanna be equipment mechanic out. I'm an old Steam Engine (Navy), Hydraulics, AC, and home auto mechanic with a pipeline welding background that is now branching into fixing his old dozer for side money. Will an allen wrench style bristol wrench work?
I'm still tracking down the SM-2045 manual so I don't have an internal breakdown view of this pump. It will not surprise me to find out the glass ball has already been broken out besides, I would like to be sure of the condition of the pump before taking on the next job I've got lined up (10 acres to clear with a pond).
Working in 3-4 hour stretches is too short of time.

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rdsar2k

08-29-2007 12:22:59




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 Re: JD 450C engine surges/ no go cold in reply to rdsar2k, 08-27-2007 07:21:57  
I've decided to rebuild the pump and I have read threads about doing this. One was really good that jdemaris said alot on as far as parts. I wrote Bristol Wrench for the size of the wrench needed and they said they only sell one to Stanadyne and it's a .291"dia. six flute tool. There part number for an allen wrench style is S-291-6. Will an allen wrench style work and does this sound like the right size?
Thanks
Shawn

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jdemaris

08-29-2007 13:33:06




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 Re: JD 450C engine surges/ no go cold in reply to rdsar2k, 08-29-2007 12:22:59  
The Stanadyne part # is 15499. Places like thompsondiesel sell the wrenches for around $4 each - last I checked. The wrench is six toothed with an O.D. of around a 1/4".



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jdemaris

08-28-2007 12:37:35




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 Re: JD 450C engine surges/ no go cold in reply to rdsar2k, 08-27-2007 07:21:57  
It could be the plastic governor weight-retainer ring as Jack Rayburn already mentioned in his repsonse. It's a common failure point - but . . . if it doesn't shut off well - that is an indicator of air in the fuel. It cannot work properly until you find the air-leak source. On a 450C, it's usually caused by a bad fuel-transfer pump, or a clocked fuel petcock at the bottom of the fuel tank. If you attempt to test fuel transfer-pump, make sure you so with the engine cranking and NOT with the hand-primer lever.

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JACK RAYBURN

08-27-2007 12:58:20




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 Re: JD 450C engine surges/ no go cold in reply to rdsar2k, 08-27-2007 07:21:57  
first off have you cleaned the suction screen an changed filter for trans? ALSO WHAT FLUID ARE YOU RUNNING? ON THE FUEL PROBLAN IT SOUNDS LIKE THE FLEX RING IN THE GOVENOR IS COMING APART, PULL THE RETURN FITTING OUT OF THE TOP OF THE PUMP AN SEE IF THERE IS A LOT OF LITTLE BLACK SPECS. IF THERE IS YOU WILL HAVE TO GET PUMP REBUILT.



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rdsar2k

08-27-2007 13:24:48




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 Re: JD 450C engine surges/ no go cold in reply to JACK RAYBURN, 08-27-2007 12:58:20  
The transfluid is an Atwoods brand that conforms to J20A and J14C. The transmission filter on the front end is new. I"ll clean the screen out this weekend and check the flex ring as you suggest. Thanks.



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