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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out

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Ken Mitchell

09-04-2007 07:17:09

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Morning
I have a straight JD450 crawler loader. It has been parked for approx 2 yrs. It needed steering clutches. It was put away running. yesterday Finished the repairs, turned the key no start. Bled fuel per manual. Primary pump is supplying fuel to the injector pump, loosened fittings on injectors, no fuel at the injectors. Is there something I am overlooking? Is there a metering rod or valve stuck? what would be the next step? I didnt want to jump in all the way if there is something simple I should be looking at.. HELP
Thanks
Kenny

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Ken Mitchell

10-08-2007 10:29:49

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to Ken Mitchell, 09-04-2007 07:17:09

The Injector pump story.
I took the injector pump to a Diesel Pump specialty shop. The High pressure pistons in the pump were stuck. I got the pump back. The rubber hose that connects from the fuel inlet and loops around to the back of the pump is now not there.
1. is this this hose necessary? The reason I ask, is I installed the pump, replaced the 2 fuel filters, primed the pump, loosened the fittings on the injectors, and cranked the engine till some fuel came out. tightened the connections. turned the key. The engine starts and runs for about 6-8 seconds. Seems like its starving for fuel. If I change the throttle position, The engine will start and run at the desired rpm, but again for approx 6 sec.
There is plenty of fuel getting to the pump.
If I let it sit for about 15 secs and surn the key it will start for about 6 secs.
I even put a primer bulb in the line with the low pressure pump to rule out inlet fuel issues. It almost seems, that internally in the injection pump there is a flow problem from the low pressure inlet to where the high pressure picks it up and sends it to the injectors. I would find it difficult to believe the screen on the inlet is plugged, but possible i guess. Again I just got the pump out of the shop.
Because i can change the throttle position, the engine reacts, so it sounds like the metering valve works. I can take off the pump and bring it back to the shop, its warrantyd for 1 yr. but its a pain. What function does that short little hose have that runs from the fuel inlet to the back side of the pump do. It enters on the engine side front of the pump. what else would make the engind starve for fuel?. If I continue to crank the engine after it stalls, it will fire again after what seems to be that it gets pumped again.
I cracked the input line after it stalls, and fuel squirts out pretty well. I even cranked the engine over. Pleanty of fuel out.
Help again please..

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ken m

09-05-2007 06:45:10

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to Ken Mitchell, 09-04-2007 07:17:09

This unit has had the solenoid missing long before I bought it. In order to shut it down I have to manually push the lever forward to shut down the motor. It ran when I put it away, Ran well It must be a clogged needle valve, or metering valve. Is there a fuel screen in the injector pump

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Don K.

09-05-2007 05:28:20

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to Ken Mitchell, 09-04-2007 07:17:09

First thing I would do is make sure the solenoid is working on the injector pump. Check that it is getting voltage to it when you turn on the key.

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hurleyjd

09-04-2007 18:42:25

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to Ken Mitchell, 09-04-2007 07:17:09

There is an electric selenoid in the pump to shut the fuel off and on. It could be bad. I bought a 450B several years ago. I had to replace the selenoid before it would crank.

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Bob

09-04-2007 08:04:46

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to Ken Mitchell, 09-04-2007 07:17:09

It is POSSIBLE for the metering valve (under the pump cover), or the plungers (DEEP inside the pump) to be stuck.

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Ken Mitchell

09-04-2007 11:21:15

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to Bob, 09-04-2007 08:04:46

Is the metering rod under the cover on the top with the 3 screws. I believe its the governor cover. Or is it more on the fuel inlet side?
The documentation I have is limited.
Im trying to understand fuel paths.
Can I use a carb Cleaner or similar?
With the pressures that the pump can generate my guess is that the fuel is just not getting to the pump pistons. The Return line is a little wet. But thats in a static state, not running. Is there any good pointers on the web for additional info? Also what looks like a drain plug or bleeder screw in the bottom of the the pump. Is it safe to remove?

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jdemaris

09-05-2007 13:57:17

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to Ken Mitchell, 09-04-2007 11:21:15

Here are a couple of more Roosamaster DB/JDB diagrams showing fuel flow.

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jdemaris

09-05-2007 13:38:51

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to Ken Mitchell, 09-04-2007 11:21:15

First, it depends on what pump you have. The 450s used the DB/JDB pumps and also the C style pumps - and they are as different as night and day. The DB/JDB pump has the top cover held on by three bolts with an internal metering valve - whereas the C pump has no top-cover and has an externally-mounted rack-and-pinion metering valve. I've included a photo showing the area of the metering vavle for the JDB/DB pump. With the JDB/DB pump, the since the metering valve is all the way on top - it can easily dry out and get stuck if the pump was not kept full of fuel. If the metering-valve is not stuck, you might want to make sure the pump is actually turning inside. The JDB/DB pump uses a driveshaft that is designed to break in half if the pump turns too hard. With the C style pump - it uses either a shear-shaft - or specal hollow shear bolts at the drive gear. There's lots of public domain repair info around, for free from the U.S. Military.

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Ken Mitchell

09-06-2007 07:57:49

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to jdemaris, 09-05-2007 13:38:51

They Blocked the pictures at our fire wall.
I took off the little timing plate to view the mark and had my wife turn the key, and that was moving. Is the shear after that?
The pump I have has the lines coming off the sides of the pump body towards the back, not out of the back.
There is a round cover at the back of the pump that is held on by 4 screws I believe. Is there any filter behind that? would it be dangerous to remove that cover? and would that show if the pump was turning.
I have removed and peeked inside the top governor cover, and the timing cover, but have not taken any other cover/s off. This has been under cover, and should have had fuel in it all the time. I had removed the fuel tank, but the filters were still full and I did not bleed off any lines before storing. So the pump should have stayed wet.

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jdemaris

09-06-2007 10:52:57

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to Ken Mitchell, 09-06-2007 07:57:49

I guess I won't bother to post any more diagrams or photos. If you see the plate with the mark rotating when the engine is cranking, then the shaft if not broken. The plate with the timing mark etched onto it is the governor weight retainer. It fastens directly to the rotor - and the rotor is what is driven by the driveshaft (that is made to shear). The cover on the back of the pump has an inlet filter on top where the fuel inlet is - but the plate is not removed to get to the filter - you just remove the hex-fitting. If you DO remove the plate, you expose the low-pressure fuel transfer-pump that is built into the back of the injection pump. It uses rotating pump blades - the old style being fiber one piece select fit, and the newer being steel spring-loaded wear-adjusting. With the top cover off, look inside and make sure the fuel metering vavle is not stuck - and in "run" position. I already posted photos of it. If it's stuck closed - it cannot run. An electric solenoid when installed - uses a spring loaded arm to push the valve closed for "shut-off." Then, when energized, the fuel solenoid pulls the spring off the valve so it will run. Since your's is gone, a small shut-off C-clip is supposed to be installed that will manually push the metering valve closed to shut-off. When a pump has sat for awhile, there are only a few things that potentially cause a "no-start" problem. As long as fuel is getting to the pump - it travels as thus. The inlet to the pump enters the low-pressure fuel pump. It then travels to the fuel metering valve - and as long as it is allowed to pass - gets delivered as low-pressure "charge-oil" to the high-pressure plungers. The plungers ride on a cam-ring. Each high-pressure fuel-charge passes through one common delivery valve. So, as long as the pump is wet and turning, the culprit is usually a stuck metering valve or a stuck delivery valve - but the latter is pretty rare since it operates under high pressure.

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Ken Mitchell

09-25-2007 07:57:34

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to jdemaris, 09-06-2007 10:52:57

Thank you for your assistance.
I ended up taking the pump out and bringing it to a injector specialty shop.
I am still waiting to hear. I appreciate all your time.
Thanks kenny

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Ken Mitchell

09-10-2007 07:23:22

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to jdemaris, 09-06-2007 10:52:57

If what Im looking at as the metering valve is correct,it is the rotational post that is vertically located in the center of the pump. It does turn when the throttle is moved. There seems to be enough fuel entering the pump. I get slight pressure spray release when I crack the input fitting. I removed the return fitting and fuel does pump out when the engine cranks. I removed one of the injector lines from the pump at the pump body.. still no output. It,s wet, but no spray. I removed the internal fuel screen, its clean. I think i am getting to the point where I need to take the pump off and bring it to a fuel injector person. To make sure of putting it back in correct time, #1 are ther marks on the timing wheel in the pump that I can see? #2. On the flywheel, are there marks on the teeth or should I just be looking for the bolt hole they talk about in the manuel? #3. I figure If I can see the timing mark on the pump, and see the mark on the fly wheel,, cylinder # 1 must be at top dc as it was running when I put it up. Otherwise, how would you know if cyl #1 was at top dc. the mark on the flywheel must come around for # 4 as well. Remove valve cover watch valves? Or am I on the right track with lining up the current marks knowing it was running.(must be #1 and in time) I still cant believe the pump went bad sitting quiet. Maybe sludge or something.. Im running out of Ideas.
Is the delivery valve something I can check or would you suggest a qualified tech. I just dont want to screw up something that may not be in bad shape. Anything else I might check before removing the pump?
Was what I was looking at as to the metering valve correct? If I remove the pump, to make sure my timing marks are lined up, How the heck do I bar the engine over without removing the hydraulic pump? Cant tell Im getting frustrated can you. haha I appreciate your help
Thanks kenny

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Bob

09-05-2007 08:16:31

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to Ken Mitchell, 09-04-2007 11:21:15

"Is the metering rod under the cover on the top with the 3 screws. I believe its the governor cover."

The metering VALVE IS under that cover. CAREFUL... if you don't get it back on correctly, you can jam the mechanism, so the engine will "run away" AND won't shut down.

"Can I use a carb Cleaner or similar?"

I wouldn't use anything but CLEAN diesel fuel to loosen up any gummy parts.

"With the pressures that the pump can generate my guess is that the fuel is just not getting to the pump pistons. The Return line is a little wet. But thats in a static state, not running."

Try removing the complete return line fitting from the pump cover, and cranking the engine. If the (vane) transfer pump is working, you should have fuel PUMPING out the hole, REGARDLESS as to if the metering valve or high-pressure pistons are stuck. (The return fitting can get blocked with "coffee groubds" IF the plastic governor ring in the pump has deteriorated.)

"Is there any good pointers on the web for additional info?"

I don't know of any "public access" sites with detailed Roosa-Master pump information.

"Also what looks like a drain plug or bleeder screw in the bottom of the the pump. Is it safe to remove?"

I'm NOT exactly sure of which plug you are referring to. I suggest you err on the side of caution, and leave it alone.

If you want to spend the $$$, you can get an injection service manual from Deere, by calling 1-800-522-7448.

Occasionally, they come up on ebay. There are IH Blue Ribbon Service Manuals for injection pumps, as well, and the information is pretty much the same. One of those MAY be easier to find, and less $$$.

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sam mcbeth

11-08-2007 17:56:03

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Re: injector pump, fuel in, no fuel out in reply to Bob, 09-05-2007 08:16:31

please let me now what you find out about your problem on 450 i have a 1010 that is doing exact thing driveing me crazy have cleand out complete fuel system thanks sam

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