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Little off topic, but I have alfalfa question?

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Bill Smith

07-30-2001 21:29:25

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Worked ground this spring and seeded alfalfa on the 10th of May. I have a fair stand in areas and poor stand in others and none at all in places. Weed problem in the whole field. Mowed it off high one time to even everything up. Weeds shot up again and now it is time to mow again but not worth bailing. Established alfalfa creates a toxin that kills new alfalfa but I think I still have some time there. Interseeding is one of my options. Should I mow it and interseed or what should I do. Maybe I would be better off calling it a total disaster and not pour any more money down a rat hole. How would interseeding work in this weedy condition? Don't really know what I should do. I am in North East Kansas and any ideas and information would be appriciated.

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Bill Smith

08-02-2001 14:44:05

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Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Bill Smith, 07-30-2001 21:29:25

I have read the follow ups and thanks to all who have replied. Any additional ideas, comments, and information will be appreciated as well. I looked at it today and noticed signs of web warm. A local person informed me of this area problem. Immediate mowing will hopefully help this oncoming problem. It is hot and dry here now and I think is what I am going to do is mow it off short and with hot dry wheather will create a fast dry down of cut off hay and weeds. A small area of field might be hayable. Then if a future rain brews up I aim to enterseed, with a drill that has a seeder attachment, right before the rain. I may also apply fertilizer and perhaps throw some bromeseed in the drill as well. It won't make it any worse but add extra expenses. I am just not ready to throw in the towel on it yet. If it don't work out I guess it just wasn't Mother Nature's plan and something else will have to be done for next years growing season. As for a soil sample, I will deffinately take this into strong consideration before putting alfalfa on another plot of land. I just think that it is a little late in the ball game to consider that now. If there is a bad ph level in soil the damage has already be done to this field. No need to shut barn door after the horse got out in other words. Soil sampling in my opinion is an insurance step that should be taken before initial seeding if your not a gambling man. Perhaps I will be less of a gambling man in the future. Adding a soil supplement in my understanding should be done before working the ground in preparing for initial seeding. If applied now it would have to be absorbed into ground by rainfall. It is ussually dry here this time of year. A big rain would be a hit and miss deal and only light rain could be expected if you happen to get a shower. Hopefully (with figers crossed) I will atleast end up with a fair stand in the whole field. I would be tickeled right now just to have a stand and be able to see it instead of just the weeds sticking up higher than the alfalfa that is there. Here's a thought, Does anyone have a green thumb according to Mother Nature? It is amazing what a toll can be done on things when dealing with nature.

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Brent

07-31-2001 19:21:36

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Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Bill Smith, 07-30-2001 21:29:25

Last year I seeded alfalfa test plots with 27 different establishment treatments here at Iowa State U. The best stand were those clear-seeded using a preplant incorporated herbicide such as Eptam, followed with a post-emerge such as Pursuit Plus when weed pressure cam on later in the season. The worst way I personally have found to establish is using a cover crop such as Oats, but it has been the standard for YEARS and most have good luck with it, although they probably have never tried the chemical route side-by-side with it to see the difference. 12-16 lbs/acre is the rule of thumb we use in Iowa. Allelopathy usually doesn't set in until the second year so you can still reseed spots this fall or frost-seed this coming spring. You could stillput Pursuit Plus or a tank mix of Poast Plus + Butyrac 200 on now to knock the weeds down. Butytrac is 2,4D-B, very similar to 2-4D but with a "B" added on, it is safe on alfalfa, soybeans, and many clovers. Good luck.

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Charles Norwood

07-31-2001 18:57:17

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Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Bill Smith, 07-30-2001 21:29:25

Call Scott Staggenborg at 785-532-2277. He's with K-State Extension. sstaggen@oznet.ksu.edu. Many other people at Manhattan can give you advice based on research. That is what KSU is for. Combine their advice with the advice of your farmer-friends and you should come out ok. Worked for K-State for 29 years, but in SW Kansas dryland--no alfalfa.

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Alfalfa

07-31-2001 14:08:27

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Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Bill Smith, 07-30-2001 21:29:25

Bill: I live in S.E. Mich and always clear seeded alfalfa in the spring . In the fall previous I burned down old alfalfa with roundup and plowed in the spring and reseed. anything that is sparce I reseed the bare spots.There is a toxin problem But with bare or poor stands the toxin is weak so I seed heavy and it usually will fill in .Keep the weeds mowed so they don't choke the alfalfa and they will die and not go to seed In my part of the country they say not to mow after Sept 1st. as the crop is building reserves for overwintering. Good luck and top dress with potash if you can Geo.

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Bill Smith

08-01-2001 22:20:17

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Re: Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Alfalfa, 07-31-2001 14:08:27

Here in Kansas we have a longer growing season and we put up alfalfa later in fall than what you all do. Most farmers here have a crop rotation system and ussually don't plant same crop back to back year after year in the same place. To fit alfalfa into this system ussually means you have it after you plant it untill it becomes pettered out (ussually about 3 to 5 years depending how your stand holds up) and then you plow it under and plant it someplace else and have it there for awhile. Ussually your second year or so is the best year for harvesting hay. If you have the right year you can get 4 cuttings of hay and if you push it you might get 5 but that is pushing it a little far.

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gene b

07-31-2001 10:35:14

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Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Bill Smith, 07-30-2001 21:29:25

you can spray weeds and not kill ALFALFA costs around 16 an acre here in IOWA works for my brother but he sells hay puts on fertilizer after each cutting and sprays for bugs pays in the next cutting always gets double or more on payoff the next cutting

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Dan

07-31-2001 10:13:12

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Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Bill Smith, 07-30-2001 21:29:25

Couple of questions--Did you soil test? Soil PH and fertility are critical for alfalfa. Check with Local Extension Office on PH and Fertility advice. I suspect thin areas are result of one or both of the above or possible erroded soil resulting in poor germination. Ask extension office about the Toxin question --it is for real. My need to switch to a clover or grass if you decide to interseed. Also did you use a cover crop of oats?
I know people do put in straight stands of Alfalfa.
I have always used cover crop oats; it comes up fast in cool weather helps keep weeds down while Alfalfa comes on. If it is a straight stand I think 8 lbs is a little light.

Personel experance is interseeding is tough to do.
Once weeds are established in seeding they are difficult to control.

I would get some advice from extension or good seed salespreson, local CO-OP or dealer.

Good Luck

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Bill Smith

08-01-2001 22:03:56

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Re: Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Dan, 07-31-2001 10:13:12

No soil test was conducted. Since the really poor stand was in eroded and silted areas I am thinking the soil is capable of gowing alfalfa. Doing a soil test should of been done and maybe still needs to be done and that is a good idea. I just think that it isn't my sole problem. I didn't use any covercrop and that might be my main problem now on the weed infestation. A cover crop may have limited and held back the weeds but the cover crop wouldn't be there now if it was original applied.

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Dan

08-02-2001 06:15:12

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Re: Re: Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Bill Smith, 08-01-2001 22:03:56

I would realy check your soil ph--also I got thinking if poor stand was in eroded areas maybe soil did not work up as well clods etc resulting in poor seed to soil contact--a drill does a better job than broadcast--I believe that rolling the ground after planting is helpful. Also maybe the ph in the eroded areas is different than other parts of the field. Don't feel to bad alot of good farmers have had the same problem. It so important to have all condition right with alfalfa--soil condition,ph, fertility, seed soil contact, lbs of seed per acre, etc. The seed is expensive and you usally live with for several years. Did you visit with your County Extension people? They are usally very helpful and knowledable. They might even come out and take a look. Don't give up--like all aspects of farming you just have to keep "fighting back". Might check into fall seeding in your area weather its replant or interseeding----Good Luck

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Bill Smith

08-02-2001 13:54:43

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Re: Re: Re: Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Dan, 08-02-2001 06:15:12

I was looking at it earlier today and noticed that it is starting to show signs of web warm. A local person clued me in on this and so immediate mowing is necessary to control that. It is just in beggining stages of that. When I seeded the ground was worked down like a garden. I seeded with a drill that had a seeding attachment and I run the discs in the ground. The seed dropped behind and I had drag chains on the drill dragging with an additional log chain dragging crossways behind that.

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Dan

08-02-2001 15:00:09

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Bill Smith, 08-02-2001 13:54:43

Sounds like you got it in in good shape. I'm out of sugestions. Best of Luck

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David Saville

07-30-2001 21:41:55

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Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Bill Smith, 07-30-2001 21:29:25

The first question is why didn't it come up in the bad areas? If the reason is drought stay calm. In 88 I had the same problem but the spring of 89 was nice and wet and the rest of the seed germinated.

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Bill Smith

07-30-2001 22:40:56

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Re: Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to David Saville, 07-30-2001 21:41:55

I seeded it on the 10th of May and it sat for over 2 weeks without rain and then we got a pretty good one. Warshed a little on the steap ground and back sides of terraces. Silted in a little in the level areas and terrace channels. Where it washed and silted is the major area's where there isn't hardly any alfalfa at all. I used Kansas Common alfalfa seed which was relatively cheap. I bought the seed at a local coop and the bags were unlabeled. Not sure what the germination was becuase of this. I put on 8lbs to the acre. My neighbor puts on this amount and says that that amount works pretty good for him. I am wondering if the weed problem might be thinning down whats there due to the canopy and smoothering it when it is mowed off. I took this into consideration when I mowed it the first time. That is why I mowed it off as high as the sickle mower would go. The stubbel seemed to stick up through the mowed off weeds where there was alfalfa. The thinner the alfalfa the thicker the weeds though. I think the time has expired for any more sprouting since we have had adequate rain since 2 weeks after the seeding. Where the alfalfa stand is poor, is it becuase of weeds or are the weeds volunteering there becuase of no alfalfa? How much damage can weeds do to a field like this? I just really wish I knew what to do. I hate to sit here and do nothing when there is a time limit on reseeding. I may be able to save field now but maybe not later.

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Ludwig

07-31-2001 08:51:42

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Re: Re: Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Bill Smith, 07-30-2001 22:40:56

Hi Bill, sounds like quite a conundrum.
In my admittedly limited experience weeds don't like being mowed, and they like being plowed even less. So normally I'd say mow the snot out of them, making sure to cut 'em before they seed. That way next year you'll be able to plant and have less of a weed problem (hopefully)
Unfortunately I don't know much about alfalfa. I don't know if mowing would hurt it or not.

My easy and stupid suggestion is to find a time where you've got a day before its supposed to rain, then mow everything real short and reseed. Hopefully your new batch is going to come growing real strong. Its that batch thats going to keep next years weeds down.

Good luck!

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John

07-31-2001 14:38:49

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Re: Re: Re: Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Ludwig, 07-31-2001 08:51:42

I would mow the alfalfa and weeds down completely and bale it to get if off of feild. I seed my feilds at 15lb to acre. Watch for new regrowth, you will be surprised how much it will regrow. It takes my feilds untill 2nd cutting the follwing year before they look like anything. If you still have some thin spots, over seed with new seed in late winter early spring, just sow it right on top of ground. You will need to do this early. You'll need some freezing and thawing to draw seed into soil. You have 3 years on a new seeding before toxins develope in soil from alfalfa.

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Denny Frisk

07-31-2001 09:58:21

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Re: Re: Re: Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Ludwig, 07-31-2001 08:51:42

Most farmers I knew sowed a cover crop of oats with the alfalfa as the second crop. Oats came up & kept the weeds down, alfalfa came up thru the oats to about 3-4 inches high by the time the oats were ripe. Combine the oats and the alf. would get 8-10" high by fall. First cutting of alf. the next year was short & weedy, but the 2nd & 3rd were good, and the 4th if You could get it cut in time. I've never heard of anyone trying to just sow alf. and get it to grow!

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Denny Frisk

07-31-2001 09:56:19

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Re: Re: Re: Re: little off topic, but I have alfalfa question? in reply to Ludwig, 07-31-2001 08:51:42

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