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Bang-Clank PTO

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BTD

06-24-2002 06:22:13




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I got myself a JD 307 Gyramor mower this weekend and started using it on my '44 M. The mower is in great shape, turns real easy and the gears are tight. The M has no problem spinning the mower up, but I have to make really wide turns as I have found that something in the transmission of the M is not happy about me turning the tractor while the PTO is driving the mower. Now I know I should not make a "tight" turn, but I find I have to make huge loops to keep the transmission from bang-clanking during the turn. Do I have a bearing going out perhaps, or is this just a normal noise I'm not used to yet? Thanks!

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BIG JOHN

06-24-2002 18:22:37




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 Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to BTD, 06-24-2002 06:22:13  
Had a 307 and it had just one long power shaft. It was a big problem when turning just a little tight. Finally bent it good. Replaced it with a two piece powere shaft and solved the problem.



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ScottyNY

06-24-2002 15:39:04




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 Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to BTD, 06-24-2002 06:22:13  
So we haven't answered what it is to be in phase. I'll admit ignorance. I'm guessing it has to do with how the U's of the U joints are oriented to each other. Assuming a shaft with two joints, should the rear half of the front joint be oriented the same way as the front half of the rear joint to be in phase? or should the be at right angles? Hoping to be bathed in the warm glow of enlightenment on this one. Thanks! Scotty

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William Ransom

06-24-2002 20:08:29




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 Re: Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to ScottyNY, 06-24-2002 15:39:04  
The rear half of the front joint is oriented the same way as the front half of the rear joint.



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ScottyNY -- Thanks! n/m

06-25-2002 02:58:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to William Ransom, 06-24-2002 20:08:29  



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Dr. Evil

06-24-2002 12:14:08




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 Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to BTD, 06-24-2002 06:22:13  
I think what all these people are explaining is the "PHASE" the PTO shaft U-joints are in determines how smooth the U-Joints transmit power when the PTO shaft is running at an angle. The geometry of the u-joints cause them to accelerate and slow down the other end of the shaft from the driving source. Since the flywheel effect of the chopper blades prevents the blades from speeding up & slowing so fast the PTO drive train in Your tractor speeds up & slows down at a frequency WAY faster that it should... in effect Your hammering the daylights out of Your PTO. PTO shafts that have 3 U-joints are better than a 2 joint PTO... and the angles the U-jionts run at when turning should almost be identicle... If Your chopper is a pull-type, the U-joint closest to the tractor will run about 3-4 times the angle of the one at the gearbox of the chopper. I've run over 1000's of acres with PTO choppers like that and You can not turn short with them. I used to pull a 6 ft. Brillion with a Super H.... about 1 turn of the steering wheel, maybe 1-1/2 turns was Max. was all the tighter I could turn.

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Dr. Evil

06-24-2002 12:12:30




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 Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to BTD, 06-24-2002 06:22:13  
I think what all these people are explaining is the "PHASE" the PTO shaft U-joints are in determines how smooth the U-Joints transmit power when the PTO shaft is running at an angle. The geometry of the u-joints cause them to accelerate and slow down the other end of the shaft from the driving source. Since the flywheel effect of the chopper blades prevents the blades from speeding up & slowing so fast the PTO drive train in Your tractor speeds up & slows down at a frequency WAY faster that it should... in effect Your hammering the daylights out of Your PTO. PTO shafts that have 3 U-joints are better than a 2 joint PTO... and the angles the U-jionts run at when turning should almost be identicle... If You chopper is a pull-type, the U-joint closest to the tractor will run about 3-4 times the angle of the one at the gearbox of the chopper. I've run over 1000's of acres with PTO choppers like that and You can not turn short with them. I used to pull a 6 ft. Brillion with a Super H.... about 1 turn of the steering wheel, maybe 1-1/2 turns was Max. was all the tighter I could turn.

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joe

06-24-2002 11:00:32




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 Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to BTD, 06-24-2002 06:22:13  
YAY! I CAN FINALLY HELP SOMEONE!
I have a JD 7' mower, it is a 307 or 407 or something, in any case, very similar to yours. A very good mower overall, they'll cut through about anything. I have run it on both our 300U and 400, and it clanks when turning too sharp. The good news: the problem is NOT in the tractor tranny! The problem spot is the slip-clutch on the mower. On ours, it had slipped a lot, and wore down on the faces of the clutch pack, not the disks, but where everything hooks up.... it is hard to explain. But anyways, the problem can be (sort of) fixed by taking the clutch pack apart on the mower and shimming things up with a washer or two. Mine still makes noise, but less since I shimmed it. And I just don't worry too hard when it makes noise: I figure, If it breaks, it breaks, and there isn't much I can do about it.
Best of luck to all of you with the same problem!

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dvtw

06-24-2002 10:43:34




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 Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to BTD, 06-24-2002 06:22:13  
BTD, I've got the exact same problem you are describing with my Farmall 560. The only time I hear this grinding noise is when I have the PTO going and making a turn. It is NOT the U-joints, definitely in the transmission. I know what U-joint noise sounds like and this is not it. I can't figure out what it is either. The only way to get it to stop is to straighten the tractor out a little within the turn and the noise then stops. It doesn't sound good whatever it is, maybe someone on here can help.

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Gene

06-24-2002 06:54:46




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 Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to BTD, 06-24-2002 06:22:13  
BTD: A PTO shaft would run the quietest if it is perfectly straight back in line with the tractors PTO output shaft. Angled down right away is made worse when turning. You may be past the normal limits of the driveshafts U-joints. G



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BTD

06-24-2002 08:01:50




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 Re: Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to Gene, 06-24-2002 06:54:46  
I'll have to see if the u-joints are worn. The last owner used an M himself to mow so he had the shaft setup pretty nice. When going straight, the shaft assembly has a pretty gently downward slope to the gear box.



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Gene

06-24-2002 08:26:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to BTD, 06-24-2002 08:01:50  
BTD: Can you reduce the load so the driveshaft is under less load while turning?? Second point is to have solid support for shaft so as to reduce floping action. Reducing load while turning may help a lot because the angle causes the shaft to have lots of side force. Adding load makes flopping side2side worse. You don't want to be anywhere near that shaft if it explodes. Could be big danger\injury if that shaft fails.. Careful there!!.. Good luck. G.

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Phil Auten (Tx)

06-24-2002 06:51:04




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 Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to BTD, 06-24-2002 06:22:13  
My '49 M does the same thing as well as two other tractors when I use my old 5' shredder. The PTO shaft on the mower is pretty loose on mine but replacing both U-joints helped eliminate most of the noise. If you change the U-joints, be sure the shaft gets reassembled so the joints are in phase. Being out of phase will cause all kinds of racket and shorten U-joint life something fierce!

Phil



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RPM

06-24-2002 06:36:44




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 Re: Bang-Clank PTO in reply to BTD, 06-24-2002 06:22:13  
Sounds like a bad or loose u-joint on the drive line of the mower, they will rattle more than the tractor, not much else it could be if the tractor is not noisy without the mower or pto off, bearing in very rear of pto shaft on tractor but not a common failure.



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