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Why won't these sleeves budge?!!

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Brad

10-30-2003 17:10:44




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I'm restoring a 46 A and everytime I need to remove something I have a devil of a time getting the job accomplished. I read this forum religiously and it all sounds so simple; "use a block of wood and tap the sleeves free," " use a sleeve puller, once they break free the sleeves will easily come out." Well, this A does NOT want to be restored because I had a sleeve puller made and have just about busted a gut trying to get the sleeves to move even a fraction of an inch. All I have accomplished is to distort the puller plate. What next? Slap the old kerosene pistons back in and go have a drink? You can probably sense my frustration. I'm at a loss as what to do now.

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caseman-d

10-31-2003 19:11:04




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 Re: Why won't these sleeves budge?!! in reply to Brad, 10-30-2003 17:10:44  
Have you made sure the blocks on the puller aren't on the sleeve flange, sometimes we overlook the obvious. Just talking from past experience.
caseman-d



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Buzzman72

10-31-2003 17:03:05




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 Re: Why won't these sleeves budge?!! in reply to Brad, 10-30-2003 17:10:44  
Dad and grand-dad ran a farm-equipment repair shop, specializing in Farmalls, from 1941 to 1991. Grand-dad modified his sleeve puller with a collar and a ring on the center screw; the ring was then attached to the chain hoist which was mounted on a 24-inch I-beam that ran the length of the shop. The sleeve puller was the racheting type, and when the pulling got tough on the 3-foot pipe handle, we'd tighten the chain hoist up ever so slightly...using the weight of the tractor to help pull the sleeves. In all my years of helping out at the shop, I've never seen this method fail...and there's no welding required after the original setup is built, no dry ice necessary, and it works on everything from A's to Super M's.

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Ohio Bill

10-31-2003 04:36:08




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 Re: Why won't these sleeves budge?!! in reply to Brad, 10-30-2003 17:10:44  
Had to turn the block upside down in a 12-ton press to punch sleeves out of a 400 (dry sleeves also.) One was particulary stubborn and the welding trick got it to break loose.



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Stan(VA).

10-30-2003 21:37:54




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 Re: Why won't these sleeves budge?!! in reply to Brad, 10-30-2003 17:10:44  
Hang in there!, I've done several of the C113/123 motors and they all come free, but some are certainly harder than others! Easiest was a running '51 C, hardest so far was a stuck 240 block that had been sitting for 20 years. That motor distorted my favorite home made puller and gave a heavy duty one a workout that I bought for a Super M block (wanna talk about tough sleeves!).

The wet sleeves only contact about 1/2 to 3/4" at the top and near the bottom which is why you've been told they come easy once they break loose. This might not help but I would recomend that you be carfull with your puller setup. On top make sure there is clearance for the sleeve shoulder all the way around, an on the bottom make sure it's pulling evenly and not accidently contacting any of the block (I've made both mistakes when in too much of a hurry).

I've never had to resort to the welding trick described by several others, but if yours is realy stuck that might be the way to go. Good luck and let us know what finally works for you.
Stan(VA).

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Kelly C

10-30-2003 19:03:25




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 Re: Why won't these sleeves budge?!! in reply to Brad, 10-30-2003 17:10:44  
When I do my 300's sleeves I will take my mig welder and run a bead from the bottom of the sleeve to the top on 4 sides.
I used this process to remove a bearing race and it srinks the metal so it just falls out.
2 things 1st.
Be sure your tractor actually has sleeves in it.
Dont laugh I read a guy tried to weld out some sleeves on a Cub and Cubs have no sleeves. Ahhh D'oh!! ( slapping sound heard wile hand hitting fore head)
Also think about where you put the ground clamp. You dont want current going through any bearings.

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old

10-30-2003 18:07:36




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 Re: Why won't these sleeves budge?!! in reply to Brad, 10-30-2003 17:10:44  
well I said I would not do this but here I am try filling the block /water jacket with turpentine sounds like rust is holding it in place



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Jonathan Mirgon

10-30-2003 18:01:31




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 Re: Why won't these sleeves budge?!! in reply to Brad, 10-30-2003 17:10:44  
Yes I can sense your frustartion I had the same problem when restoring my (a) engine. I cant remember which was harder : getting the sleeves out or the new crank pulley on. It sounds like you have pretty well tried everthing. Where I work we have a huge press , I ended up taking the block to work , turning upside down and using the press, they popped right out then. You may have to end up taking to a machine shop with a large press. The other other thing you may try is to pack one of the liners with (dry ice) and let it sit a little while this may shrink your liner enough to allow it to come out. If you try that and it works let me know. I have heard of people using this method.

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Brad L

10-30-2003 18:38:11




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 Re: Re: Why won't these sleeves budge?!! in reply to Jonathan Mirgon, 10-30-2003 18:01:31  

If the sleeves have been damaged to the point of what does it matter I have an idea. Have never tried it but I have heard you came run a bead ariund the inside of a stuck bearing race and when it cools the race just about falls out. MAYBE? that would work with a stuck sleeve also. You also could maybe use the dry ice inside the sleeve after you welded your bead to contract the sleeve fast. the shock may crack it loose. Have ot ever tried this but it might work.. Just a thought. Brad

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TP from Central PA

10-30-2003 18:52:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Why won't these sleeves budge?!! in reply to Brad L, 10-30-2003 18:38:11  
I did that on an 8N Ford and it worked great..... ..... ....I MIG'ed the ones in it. Put just enough heat down to shrink them enough I could take them out with my hands..... ...Worked Good!



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Bob

10-30-2003 21:53:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Why won't these sleeves budge?!! in reply to TP from Central PA, 10-30-2003 18:52:14  
The 8N has thin "dry" sleeves that fit in a semi finished bore, and are not exposed to coolant to rust them in place.. The A has "wet" sleeves, and two packings or "o" rings at the bottom that ARE exposed to coolant, which usually seeps into the grooves, and rusts the whole thing tight. I have seen blocks with part of the "o" ring land ripped out by the rusty sleeve being pressed out. It sure could not hurt to weld a series of beads inside the sleeve, especially in the bottom 2 inches, where they are stuck the worst, and the place the block, well supported, upside down in a press and push them out with a thick steel place machined to closly fit the bottom (top in this position) of the sleeve.

This is the type of job perhaps best left to someone with the proper equipment, if you do not have access to it, as a fee paid to a good engine man to remove the sleeves would probably be a lot more reasonable than a replacement block! Using a sleeve puller which presses down on the top of the block could possibly break the upper deck if the load is not spred over a wide enough area.

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TP from Central PA

10-31-2003 03:48:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why won't these sleeves budge? in reply to Bob, 10-30-2003 21:53:35  
I know the 123's are wet sleeves..... .....But the process is the same and it works. Especially if you know what your doing welding..... ....



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Slowpoke

10-30-2003 23:06:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why won't these sleeves budge? in reply to Bob, 10-30-2003 21:53:35  
What keeps the wet sleeves from moving out of the bottom of the block when the engine is running?
Are there two grooves in the outside of the sleeve as well as matching grooves in the block?
It doesn't seem like two rubber "O" rings would hold it against the friction of the rings on the downward stroke of the piston.



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gene b

10-31-2003 04:25:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why won't these sleeves bu in reply to Slowpoke, 10-30-2003 23:06:09  
There is one o-ring at the bottom and a flange on the top. The head keeps the sleeve tight.



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Bob

10-30-2003 23:22:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why won't these sleeves bu in reply to Slowpoke, 10-30-2003 23:06:09  
The sleeves are machined with a flange at the top that is held down tight into a counterbore in the block deck by the clamping pressure of the head gasket being squashed down against the top of the sleeve.



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Slowpoke

10-31-2003 13:32:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why won't these sleeve in reply to Bob, 10-30-2003 23:22:10  
Thanks, Gene and Bob



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Brad L

10-30-2003 18:39:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Why won't these sleeves budge?!! in reply to Brad L, 10-30-2003 18:38:11  
Sorry about the spelling in the last post @ 30 hours work and not much sleep!



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