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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Hand cranking

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BEL@IN

11-02-2007 03:01:35




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What am I missing as to hand cranking these tractors. I know if they are not properly timed they will kick back. I have cranked magneto tractors, when the battery was dead, with no problems for years, are the distributor tractors different? Any comments would be appreciated.




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Hugh MacKay

11-04-2007 16:51:59




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to BEL@IN, 11-02-2007 03:01:35  
Bel: I guess the first question is how do we all define dead battery. I also think there is a difference between generator systems and alternator systems. My experience is I've successfully crank started many a generator system when there was no spark laying a wrench across the battery terminals. I've also seen alternator systems with enough fire to bump the starter yet wouldn't fire the engine on a hand crank.

A couple of times in the past two years, and one of these were 6 volt alternator the other 12 volt alternator. Both would bump the starter, yet not fire by hand cranking. At both times when this happened I did not have boost cables on hand, thus I ran two number 12 jump wires from one tractor to the other. ( one positive, one negative) In both cases they fired by hand cranking, and very quickly.

I may be all haywire on this, however I'm convinced a generator has enough current and quickly enough to start the tractor without anything from the battery. Will I change my alternator tractors back to generator? Answer is NO. The jump wires hang on my shop wall. I made these no.12 wires up 12' long complete with aligator clips years ago as test wires to see where current was routed on a truck.

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LenNH

11-03-2007 13:43:11




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to BEL@IN, 11-02-2007 03:01:35  
Weak battery might give enough power to give spark to the plugs, but without using the starter, which drains a terrific amount of current, and would probably kill the ignition totally if used.
I'm gettin' to be an old-timer, but I've seen people of a generation older than me who'd broken arms by trying to spin a crank (pull up and push down in one fast turn). If the timing is too advanced (impulse not working on a mag, for example, or battery ignition not retarded enough), there is a great chance of a kickback. As several people say here, there are ways to keep away from the crank.
I've cranked airplanes, too, but the motion is completely different--you pull down, but you raise one leg and kick it back just as you are pulling down, so that you take a step backwards and get out of the way of the propellor. Still, a hand-cranker could take the ag pilot's advice and stand in such a way as to allow moving backwards from the crank. I always stood so the crank wouldn't hit me, pulled up with my right hand, and immediately leaned my upper torso backwards. If the crank kicks backwards, it can't hurt you if you are pulling up UNLESS your arm stays in the way. I have seen cranks fly off, but they usually don't go far. There is something to be said for putting a pin or a nail through the cranking shaft to keep the crank on, but of course that means that it can't fly off and will definitely spin backwards. If you're out of its way, it can't hurt. Never cranked a tractor with battery ignition, but lots with mags. ALWAYS checked the latch on the manually-operated impulse (E4A), and listened for the little clinking sound when the latch dropped on an automatic impulse (F4).

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Owen Aaland

11-02-2007 22:16:37




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to BEL@IN, 11-02-2007 03:01:35  
IH battery ignition systems in tractors are designed to have the timing set at high idle where the distributor is at maximum advance. If the advance mechanism is worn, it may result in the timing be off several degrees at cranking speed. This can result in the timing being before TDC for starting.



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John T

11-02-2007 09:00:14




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to BEL@IN, 11-02-2007 03:01:35  
You ask "Are the distributor tractors different" ?? Yeppers as they depend on the batterys available stored energy to produce the starting spark versus the mag which produces its own energy and dont need a darn batetry at all. However, if the battery is really really weak that can reduce the starting spark spark energy while the mag, again, isnt dependant on a battery. Another however, if the mag has a weak spring impulse, then its start spark can be weak although the running spark can still be fine.

Whew lol, Okay heres a thought on if youre just talkin HAND STARTING and although in general a coil ignition with a good battery produceds MORE energy then a mag I CAN THINK OF A REASON WHY HAND CRANKING MAY BE EASIER OR EASIER TO SET UP WITH A GOOD MAG THEN A COMPARABLE GOOD COIL IGNITION

Heres why I say that (if anyone cares lol) Exact Static Start Timing is Critical for hand starting cuz the spark needs to occur right at TDC and NOT a few degrees later cuz then shes harder to start (anyone disagree???) Sooooo oooo with a Mag that can be set pretty darn close to right on correct cuz its easy to hear the impulse snap and when it happens relative to a TDC timing mark i.e. you can EASILY set it to fire right at dead TDC

BUTTTTT TTTTT to set a distributor to fire at TDC you have to get the piston to TDC, retard the timing, then slowlyyyyy yyy advance timing just till the points break open and/or the plug fires..... ..While a timing light may work to try n set things up, I dont see that as good as the slow static method concerning the exact firing at exact TDC.

BUTTTTT TTTTT I just dont see the exact point opening time (when plug fires) as being as consistent with when a mag trips at slowwwww hand cranking speed. I guess what Im saying is she may be harder to hand start with a distributor cuz its harder to get her to as consistently fire right at dead TDC with that versus getting her to fire right at TDC with a mag and if she fires much later shes HARDER TO START..... ...wwwww wHEWWWWW WWWWW WW

Of course, if the static start timing will fire right at TDC with the coil/distributor, since it ought to produce plenty good spark energy (more then a mag esp if it has a weak spring) it should hand start as good or better then a mag buttttt t Ima thinkin if shes harder to hand start with a coil/distributor versus a mag I say its cuz the timing isnt as good n a lil slow and is harder to get exact versus the mag.

LOVE TO HEAR SOME COUNTER ARGUMENTS OR AGREEMENT EVEN LOL

John T (loves sparky chat DUH)

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jk

11-02-2007 12:44:29




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to John T, 11-02-2007 09:00:14  
i slighlty disagree john. when the battery was dead on my C ( i"ll leave it at C ), all the electric start would do is click. i dug the crank off the shelf, turned on the key, and it started the the second spin of the crank. my grandpa taught me how to crank start it when i bout it back from him, "just in case". my C has a distributor.



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John T

11-02-2007 14:29:48




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to jk, 11-02-2007 12:44:29  
Good comment, I guess we need to define a DEAD battery verus a "really really weak" one I mentioned lol. An ignition coil is more of a current device then a voltage device (albeit I still = V/R) and so long as enough current passes through it to store sufficient energy to arc jump current across the plug gap when the points break open, fer sure the plug can still fire. Of course, the laws of physics still apply and less energy into n stored by the coil the less that can get discharged across the plugs gap buttttt ttttt tt even if its a weaker spark so long as it ignites the fuel SHE STARTS WOOOOO OOO HOOOOO OOOO

Hey I betcha Ive owned some batteries that were tooooo o weak or just plain ol deader n a doornail and couldnt even fire a plug buttttt tttt it dont take all that much stored energy to still be able to pass sufficient coil current to be able to fire a plug. Still a weak (whatever that is lol) battery isnt gonna produce as much spark energy then a good strong one...

Fun chat, take care now

John T

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Bob M

11-02-2007 13:33:42




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to jk, 11-02-2007 12:44:29  
I've spun up a couple tractors with "dead" batteries.

Seems good 6 volt ignition can still fire the plugs good enough to start with only a couple volts showing across the battery - not enough to even click the starter!



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John T

11-02-2007 14:32:27




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to Bob M, 11-02-2007 13:33:42  
Hey Bob, Glad to see your post, read my response above, we all gotta sit down n define weak batteries from "really really weak" ones (my original post) from DEAD ones. I bet I got some do dead you cant get a spark out of lol

John T



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Pale Rider

11-02-2007 06:26:51




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to BEL@IN, 11-02-2007 03:01:35  
The difference is that with a distributor the timing is set advanced a few degrees which heightend the chance of firing and then kicking back. With a magneto the start position of the lever is at top dead center with the purpose of reducing this posibility. Once it is started the lever is advanced to the run position whereby it is now advanced.



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Janicholson

11-02-2007 05:22:23




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to BEL@IN, 11-02-2007 03:01:35  
Rules:
Ignition timing at TDC (no advance when at cranking speed.
Pull up on the crank only do not try to continue the rotation past about the 1 o'clock position
Keep all fingers and thumb wrapped on the same side of the handle. (saves fingers)
Keep your face and body parts out of the path of the crank handle. It is a vicious propeller and will nail you badly. Respect it. JimN



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agpilot

11-02-2007 07:45:44




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to Janicholson, 11-02-2007 05:22:23  
Hello all: Quoteing what JimN just said: "It is a vicious propeller and will nail you badly. Respect it." unquote.. I have seen this mistake often on tractors. In learning how to hand crank small aircraft engines, that were built during the 1930's -1940's, the person "swings" their entire body away from the propeller arc as they start to Pull the Prop through. That's the best way to get out of the way. I've seen many beer bellies hanging right in the way. They also keep their feet flat footed in one spot which does not aid getting their entire body away from the propeller arc. I'll have to look for some pictures of a person hand cranking an old airplane engine that would show the "Body swing away from danger" right as they start the pulling action. Propellers are much less forgiving so every improvment in how a person does it will help. I've hand cranked a 360 cube Lycoming and visions of getting sliced in two were present but I did it in the best way possible and felt ok about doing it. SWINGING your body away is a very good lesson to carry over to hand cranking tractors. agpilot

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sd pete

11-02-2007 10:18:43




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to agpilot, 11-02-2007 07:45:44  
don"t wrap your fingers around the prop.



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agpilot

11-02-2007 16:46:58




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 sd pete in reply to sd pete, 11-02-2007 10:18:43  
sd pete: Your comment is probably the best level your mind can handle? Teen-ager? ...oh well. Everybody was a teen at one time. If you have to hand start anything, call you Dad to help you. agpilot



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Bob M

11-02-2007 05:00:09




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to BEL@IN, 11-02-2007 03:01:35  
So long as the ignition is timed correctly and the distributor centrifugal advance is working, a battery ignition tractor will not kick back while being handcranked.

However if the static timing is set wrong (ie. before TDC) or if the centrifugal advance does not fully retard timing at rest, a kickback can occur!



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El Toro

11-02-2007 03:57:13




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to BEL@IN, 11-02-2007 03:01:35  
If your battery's state of charge is too low with a distributor, it may not have enough voltage to supply adequate voltage to the coil to start the engine when hand cranking. Hal



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CNKS

11-02-2007 09:41:45




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to El Toro, 11-02-2007 03:57:13  
True -- But on the other hand I have hand cranked my disributer equipped Super A and C when the battery could not turn the engine over. In that case all the current went to the starter, leaving none for the ignition.



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El Toro

11-02-2007 09:49:01




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 Re: Hand cranking in reply to CNKS, 11-02-2007 09:41:45  
It all depends if the ignition is receiving enough
voltage. We had an old 1936 Chevy truck that was used on the farm and sometimes it wouldn't have enough voltage to crank the engine, but I started it many times with the hand crank. Hal



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