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Water in Oil

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Andy

07-24-2000 05:33:24




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I just tunned up an '44 M (gas) that was not running well and took it for a spin. Prior to tune up it was back firing and had no power to pull anything (would stall trying to get into 5th gear). Did compression check and got 3 cylinders at 125 and a third 115psi. After tune up it pulled a culitvator and got into 5th no problem...It suddenly lost power..Radiator has slight leak however guage was not reading overheatd (new Guage 6months old). Well When I shut it down she diesled on a second or two...And then I noticed it..."Chocoalte Moose" Comming out of the Governor Breather! Next I checked the Filter (Ditto) then droped the Oil plug and Ditto. The radiator was low however I had run it without tin on it...and could see water leaking from some pin holes at top. I also found water on top of the carb when I shut her down. I didn't run it after she lost power so I don't think I did any Bearing harm...

Any suggestions as to how water got into block. I know Head gasket and Cracked block...But it was running fine then just...Poof..Any suggestions or direction would be helpful. Am I in for an egine overhaul? Would love to hear from a Farmall expert...Thanks!

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RB

07-24-2000 14:33:21




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 Re: Water in Oil in reply to Andy, 07-24-2000 05:33:24  
All good suggetions,but let me give you another.Ive only run into this twice so if some folks think Im crazy Id almost believe them.We had two Ms when I was growing up.On one there was water getting in the oil.went through all the usual but still water in the oil.Bought a new engine and was putting the front timing cover on,off of the old block,when I noticed what looked like a freez plug.It had rusted through.About two years ago I cam across another engine like that.I was told by some folks here that it was probably a fix,but they were in the same place.Ive built several M engines since and I havent seen another since.Just my two cents.

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The Red

07-24-2000 14:39:26




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 Re: Re: Water in Oil in reply to RB, 07-24-2000 14:33:21  
I wonder if that was an original casting that got changed down the road. Glad you posted that RB.



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Rich Cota

07-24-2000 10:45:52




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 Re: Water in Oil in reply to Andy, 07-24-2000 05:33:24  
Andy, I would tend to suspect a cracked head. If it runs fine when cold but looses power and or misses after it gets warmed up it could be a bad coil. But if you're getting water in the oil then you may have a crack in the head that opens up after it gets hot and lets water into the cylinder.90% of the M's that I overhaul have cracked heads. They have been heated up and cooled down so many times that the metal is failing.

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H MN

07-24-2000 08:17:20




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 Re: Water in Oil in reply to Andy, 07-24-2000 05:33:24  
Andy: May be a good idea to try separating out all the things you mentioned. Stalling and poor running may be not related at all to a cracked head or block. A total tune up may cure all the poor running. The possible cracked block may be another story. How long have ya had it and has it gotten real hot lately or sat last winter without good antifreeze? Other should have better tests for cracked blocks? For me I would flush radiator and fill with just water and put in new oil\filter and run again enough to see if you loose water level and if it is going into the pan. White smoke from exhaust can be a tip off. Extra clean cylinder\sparkplug could also be a tip that water is leaking into that cylinder and steam cleaning it. I'd like to see what other methods people use to test for cracks? Hope you luck out. H MN

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Andy

07-24-2000 14:53:58




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 Re: Re: Water in Oil in reply to H MN, 07-24-2000 08:17:20  
Hmn...Thanks for comments

I know I have a lot going on here. Let me sort some things out. The bad running was from last season ..re timing the magneto to engine seemed to help that problem..However still hard to start, rich running and no power. Same problem persisted after I got new tires (not that that should change anything) Ran once a barely got out of its way. Aside from sandblasting spark plugs and checking points.. All I did was replace the kill wire to the magneto and switch by driver..Still Ran rich which is probably adjustment on carb (Rebuilt two summers ago).

But then the lost power...and the oil mess. Last summer I used it on 3 acres of pumpkins and noticed what appeared to be leak comming from the water pump gland packing...I also use to get condensation on the intake manifold...now I'm not sure that these were all signs of problems that led me to yesterdays mess...

How do I check for a cracked head (if it's not obvious). SHould I buy a new one (which wouldn't make me happy!). How do I get all that contaminated oil out? Does the oil "deflate" once it cools off...It really was a mess!

Thanks Again

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The Red

07-24-2000 15:53:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Water in Oil in reply to Andy, 07-24-2000 14:53:58  
OK we are making a little progress. First on the water pump. There is packing material where the shaft emerges to turn the fan blades. That packing has gone bad so your coolant is leaking out there. I commented on the other post of mine on the oil. I think you have about 3 or 4 different problems going on at once. These old Farmall Hs and Ms can run with a lot of things messed up.



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The Red

07-24-2000 06:41:49




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 Re: Water in Oil in reply to Andy, 07-24-2000 05:33:24  
Well you obviously have good rings. That is great compression on all 4. When she about konked, did you notice white smoke from the exhaust by chance?



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Andy

07-24-2000 14:42:39




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 Re: Re: Water in Oil in reply to The Red, 07-24-2000 06:41:49  
Thanks for all the replys...they've been helpful.

can't say that I did...I have had raditor problems last summer with this tractor (thus the new guage to keep an eye on the heat level). Tractor sat all winter all drained. It had some timing problems last season which were fixed to the point it no longer belched fire..but it ran withouth much power (couldn't drag a culitivator) that's as far as it got prior to this spring.

It sat outside for two months this spring waiting for tires (Took time to sand blast wheels) It was uncovered but exhaust had a rain plate on it. My neighbor had said that maybe it had a hung valve due to some of the heating problems.. I expected to find really bad compression however I guess it was good (Don't know what it should be..however the starter works hard to turn it over so...) Will a cracked head show up in a compression test if I run it again? When she lost power I could put the throttle all the way down without any change in RPM..I assume this was due to my collection of "Oil Moose" in the governor.

I had it started one other time after the new tires were on (it ran with no power..barely making it up a slight incline)...I sandblasted the plugs (carb is running rich) and checked the points. The only thing new I did was replace the wire from the kill switch to the Magneto...It ran fine afer that (albeit rich) until the water problem.

I can deal with a head..not looking forward to tearing down block especially if compression is good. How do I clean out all the oil? I just assumed the whole thing would have to be torn apart to get that stuff out...its like pudding? Do I have to run a solvent or something through it?

Any suggestion would help...Thanks alot

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The Red

07-24-2000 15:49:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Water in Oil in reply to Andy, 07-24-2000 14:42:39  
Andy my guess is that you have multiple problems. Oil wise, I am guessing that this engine had non-detergent oil for a Long time. You might be breaking up sludge with detergent oil. I would suggest you change the oil and the filter with 8 quarts of detergent SAE 30 and run it again and check the oil after an hour of running or so. You might want to drop the oil pan and give it and the oil inlet screen on the oil pump a good cleaning.

Cooling wise, if you have some minor leaks in the radiator, you will lose coolant pretty quick. I am not sure you have coolant getting into the oil at this point in time.

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Andy

07-24-2000 16:36:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Water in Oil in reply to The Red, 07-24-2000 15:49:07  
Red... That's interesting? I can't imagine having such good compression with a crack somewhere..Where else would the water come from ? I took off the valve cover and beleive me there was water in there...I don't where it's getting in...Plus I didn't get more than 20 minutes out of it berfore I got the oil fowling up. I'm afraid to run it again until I find the problem.



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Rich Cota

07-25-2000 04:33:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Water in Oil in reply to Andy, 07-24-2000 16:36:01  
Andy, if the head is cracked you will still have good compression unless the cracks are very bad. I have worked on 2 M's with cracked heads that were getting water in the oil and both had excellent compression, like yours. Most of the cracked heads I have found after I took the heads off. Some I could see, some the machine shop found when they magnafluxed the head.



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The Red

07-25-2000 04:28:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Water in Oil in reply to Andy, 07-24-2000 16:36:01  
Now that you have said that, I am leaning towards the concensus of a cracked head.



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dave

07-24-2000 19:05:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Water in Oil in reply to Andy, 07-24-2000 16:36:01  
pull the oil pan,pull the spark plugs out.then go get yourself a cooling system pressure checker,or make your own with an air commpressor.you will have to make a fitting to go on the block,or make a hose adapter.don,t go over 5psi when you pressurize the system.once you do that you should be able to look up into the engine block to see what is leaking.same for the sparkplugs,if leaking in the comd. chamber you should be able to see or hear it.

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Andy

07-26-2000 05:39:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Water in Oil in reply to dave, 07-24-2000 19:05:57  
Thanks for all the replys..I'm going to have another go at it this weekend. Should it need a head what's my best route? Buy a new one...rebuilt?..Nobody has given any advice onhow to get all the fouled oil out though!
Thanks Again...



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