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German Diesel 460's

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Eric

08-14-2002 20:44:10




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Went to Sedalia, MO. Saw a 460 pull from Colrado(BBear I think announcer said). Has a german diesel with diesel head with spark plugs. NATPA rules in div 5 say NO diesel heads!! How can this be allowed? If you pull 3750-5500 lbs NATPA div 5 or know someone, there better be some questions answered SOON!! Can EVERYONE now run crossflow heads and put plugs in the injector holes or is this just a "board member" rules?? Surely someone from NATPA can answer this! It made good horsepower, but it is NOT right. Give him already 3400++ rpms,then the wrong head too!?! What's next, start the sled at the 50 foot marker!!!!! We all need to stand up and say NO to this rule infraction!!!!! !!!

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Augie

08-16-2002 10:01:58




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 Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to Eric, 08-14-2002 20:44:10  
Why you guys are crying about the NATPA while you're talkin about the MO State Fair pull?

Look at Section D, Div5 Tractor Pull, pay particular attention to Rule #14.

Apply the Bill Clinton Rules of Ambiguous Meaning and well maybe a diesel engine burning gas at this particular pull is legal, and maybe it isn't legal. It all depends on what your definition of "is" is...

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Auger

08-18-2002 11:02:15




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 Re: Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to Augie, 08-16-2002 10:01:58  
Augie -

Since you bring up the Missouri State Fair and there rules, it should be noted that the "German diesel" block is alleged to be .750 inch longer than a "stock" block or 301 engine block. I can't verify this for sure, as I am not an IH man.

Point being made, rules are made to be enforced, otherwise why make them? This tractor is alleged to be illegal not only under NATPA Div 5 rules, but also the Missouri State Fair Pull rules according to the link that you provided. I think that in either setting, it should be investigated and thrown out or put to rest!

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Eric

08-16-2002 10:42:31




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 Re: Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to Augie, 08-16-2002 10:01:58  
we are talking about this in general. They had classic classes and div 5! If you say you are running NATPA rules, then you go by them. NOONE will say that he is wrong, if what he's supposed to be running is in there! Someone from NATPA needs to grab their b@lls and take charge!!



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Augie

08-16-2002 19:26:36




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 Re: Re: Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to Eric, 08-16-2002 10:42:31  
Yeah, they had Div5, but nowhere in the MO State Fair rules did it say that that it was NATPA Div5. The fair published a set of rules for their pull.

If you're gonna talk about the NATPA talk about the NATPA. That discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the MO State Fair.



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G-MAN

08-15-2002 17:08:46




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 Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to Eric, 08-14-2002 20:44:10  
I'm not posting this to start a color war, so don't go there. I do have a question about NATPA and the 1959 limit. I'm obviously a huge Deere fan and my question is this. Is the 1959 limit there to keep the 3010s and 4010s out of the party? It seems like a well-built, tweaked and lightened-up 4010 could do some serious damage in these pulls, and do it with a stock block, head and so forth - albeit with the proper internal modifications. I like good competition as much as anyone, but if one group gets a specific advantage, it isn't competition at all. I've also seen several comments about the "obsolete old two-cylinder Deeres" and how expensive they are to build. Do the guys that make these comments want to go up against a newer Deere? Once again, this is not intended to start a color war - I'm looking for honest opinions.

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agcopuller

08-16-2002 08:41:14




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 Re: Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to G-MAN, 08-15-2002 17:08:46  
Good point G-man. I think it's inevitable that to grow the sport and espically for younger people we will have to expand the magic cutoff dates to the earliy 60's however, their will be tradeoffs as an example the new generation Deere's like the 4010 you mentioned use the same engine as today's.
A 496cu inch Deere in a properly ballasted 4010 may take more than a lot of sled to stop it. I have a 63 model D-21 Allis that I have hooked to the antique sled for exhibition only a few times and it walks it out the gate and it's nothing special maybe 120Hp No Turbo at 10000 lbs.

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G-MAN

08-16-2002 13:58:12




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 Re: Re: Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to agcopuller, 08-16-2002 08:41:14  
Yes, I would say that a lot of the sleds that are currently used for antique pulling would have to be revamped or replaced when you start pulling tractors that produce 90 horsepower from the factory. I would think that the right cash and parts could get 200 horses out of a 4010 pretty easily. There is quite a bit of difference between a 4010 engine and an 8.1 Powertech (496), but I understand your point. If there's guys putting 450 engines or whatever else they use in Ms, there will be Deere pullers willing to spend the big bucks to make a 4010 a monster. And if it ever happens, I hope some guys do it. This is nothing against Oliver, A/C or IH pullers, but everybody knows it's cheaper and easier to build a competitive tractor of these brands than a Deere, for the big-boy classes. It seems like it's time to level the playing field some. I think this is one of those subjects that you're never going to please everybody on, but it seems unfair to tell a guy with a 1960 tractor built in 1959 isn't old enough, when a 1959 tractor built in 1959 is. I also don't understand the concept of former Division 4 and 5 tractors moving down into Division 2 and 3 as they become obsolete and not on the cutting edge of antique tractor performance. I kind of thought the lower divisions were there to give the guys with smaller wallets a chance to have fun and be competitive, but apparently now they're just a hide-out for the older tractors that can't run with the big dogs anymore. Oh well, I guess it's just a good reason not to join the NATPA. When I first got interested in old tractors, I figured that NATPA was probably a heck of an organization to belong to, but the more I read on this board, the more I think I was probably wrong. My two cents.

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KB

08-15-2002 19:20:24




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 Re: Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to G-MAN, 08-15-2002 17:08:46  
Ditto.

We have thought about opening up our stock class, but only on the upper ended weight classes, 7500 and up. Mainly to get the newer antique tractors involved as there are people who want to pull those tractors.

Why the weight class limit, so we don't have a stripped down 560 or 4010 running in the same class with older tractors that didn't didn't sell with the same h.p.

This is only geared towards stock classes. Open is open.

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EFV

08-15-2002 12:33:11




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 Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to Eric, 08-14-2002 20:44:10  
WTW's comments are valid, crooked politicians beat
the fun out of NATPA. As for Bear's 460,can anyone
post a picture with the engine visible? Most of the posts concerning Bill's tractor have come from people who can't tell the difference between a German (Neuss) diesel and Panzer!



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WTW

08-15-2002 08:23:43




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 Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to Eric, 08-14-2002 20:44:10  
Eric, This kind of B.S. has been going on since day one of the NATPA. Getting anything done about it is a waste of time and money. Been there and tried myself on other crooked issues that they still support today. Just ask the board who voted in WC Allis RPM advantage. The membership didn't! You would have better luck dealing with the Mafia than you will the NATPA. I am not going to waste anymore of my time and more so yet money supporting them as I did for three years. Only way you will get there attention is quite supporting it. If people want to donate there time and money to support this crooked organization and pay for the big dollar boys winnings and insurance just keep paying your entry fees and dues. I will bet you 10 to 1 that you won't get Bear 460 out. No more than you will get Burch's Allis RPM rule advantage changed. Save your money and tell them where to stick it. There is other honest organizations to go pull with why tolerate it.

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wellsaid

08-15-2002 19:45:54




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 Re: Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to WTW, 08-15-2002 08:23:43  
well said



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Eric

08-15-2002 12:36:06




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 Re: Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to WTW, 08-15-2002 08:23:43  
I agree, but why can't someone from the NATPA answer us?? Some of "the higher ups" occasionally post here! I have heard they just "don't want to discuss it". You're right, none of them will have the courage to stand up to this issue like the allis rpms! Burch will only say pulling is costing more money (and acting like he isn't guilty of spending any). Let's see..... he just bought Kenny Smith's 88 (gingerich), plus has his own 88 (gingerich), hauls them in an enclosed trailer which is then pulled by a how many hundred thousand dollar motor home...and everyone else is GUILTY??? They need to rule on this head issue quick!! Soon other brands will go to diesel heads too!!

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WTW

08-15-2002 12:55:48




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 Re: Re: Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to Eric, 08-15-2002 12:36:06  
The whole problem is that the "higher ups" are railroading there own program. They don't and will not discuss a problem that they created and are dead guilty of! They think of themselves only and nobody else or other brands. They can write there line of B.S. in the HOOK magazine and try and make people believe (for the pullers by the pullers) (BS) all they want, I and allot more people know better. We don't buy it or believe it. Record shows how they operate and this 460 issue just suports it some more. They are the "Big Wheels" and you know what dogs do to "Big Wheels"!

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KB

08-15-2002 16:27:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: German Diesel 460's in reply to WTW, 08-15-2002 12:55:48  
Does the NTPA or ATPA have these issues? If NOT, what is the "governing" difference? It's too much like politics and most CEO's, good 'ole boys get their way because they are selfish and don't think of growing for future generations.

I think it's an interesting mechanical contraption, the german diesel head running "AC Delco glow" plugs, but theres a place for that, somewhere where the rules allow it - and maybe that's MO. Not sure if the pull you are talking about was running NATPA rules or not.

The NATPA is getting close to ten years old and yet the cutoff for tractors is still pretty much the same - 1959. Will it still be the same ten years from now or will they think ahead?

After being an original member, I gave up my NATPA membership 3 years ago.

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