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Forced Air Induction

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Super G

10-04-2002 20:32:39




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Anybody ever tried a forced air induction with a G?

Kind of like a super charger....




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jdeereg

10-07-2002 05:08:43




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 Re: Forced Air Induction in reply to Super G, 10-04-2002 20:32:39  
I have a friend that owns an engine shop that builds engines for dirt-track late models, and he said that adding just 8 psi of pressure to the carb would give a 20-30 horsepower increase to their engines. I realize that we are comparing a 10,000 rpm engine to a 1800-2200 rpm engine, but forced air induction will produce horsepower increases.



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G-MAN

10-07-2002 05:33:55




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 Re: Re: Forced Air Induction in reply to jdeereg, 10-07-2002 05:08:43  
Adding 8 psi of boost may very well add that much horsepower, but it's going to take a a big fan spinning real fast in a ducted fan type situation to give 8 psi of boost to a 412 cubic inch engine. Just think about the fact that a turbocharger has to spin in the neighborhood of 100,000 to 120,000 rpm to produce around 15 psi of boost in a Deere 466. There is simply no way that some home engineered electric fan setup is going to deliver that kind of airflow and keep that intake system pressurized. If there was, these companies wouldn't be need $1000 turbochargers, intercoolers and the like.

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Brandon

10-04-2002 21:09:14




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 Re: Forced Air Induction in reply to Super G, 10-04-2002 20:32:39  
I haven't seen any like this, but I have heard of people putting small fans in the oil-bath canister which would push alot more cool air to the carbuerator. You shouldn't be able to tell that it was in there if it was done right especially if you ran the wires out of the top backside of the canister. Thats something to think about.

Brandon



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As if!!!!

10-05-2002 19:04:08




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 Re: Re: Forced Air Induction in reply to Brandon, 10-04-2002 21:09:14  
There is no way in h%*ll a small fan hidden in the oil bath is gonna increase air flow. If anything, all that contraption will do is only restrict the air suction already created from the intake, and besides if ya get caught with a mickey mouse mess like that you will be the laughing stock of the county. just my 2 cents worth



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use your head

10-07-2002 15:42:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Forced Air Induction in reply to As if!!!!, 10-05-2002 19:04:08  
First off you can not even cuss, too many characters in your word. If you wasn't so worried about looking cool on here and making fun of the gentleman you might figure out how it could work. First there is kit you can buy for cars that is the same concept called the "Tornado." Fit one of them in your oil bath precleaner,(gutted, of course i'm sure you knew that}. Put on a togle switch and when you take off with the sled, bam 500 cfm's of air flow to your carb. However, with this mod a fuel pump might be needed. If you think about it this is the same concept as a turbo or supercharger, it just fits in your air ducting, and runs off electric.
P.S. The difference between a good cheater and a bad cheater is the good cheater leaves you wondering what he has done.

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nobody leaves me wonderin nothin at tractor pulls

10-08-2002 21:51:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Forced Air Induction in reply to use your head, 10-07-2002 15:42:26  
Your wrong buddie, a bad cheater is nothin more than a dreamer and a good cheater is somebody with more money than brains



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Steve - IN

10-07-2002 17:53:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Forced Air Induction in reply to use your head, 10-07-2002 15:42:26  
Need a little help getting that deal done.
Where does a guy go about finding a 4 or 5 inch diameter muffin fan that will push the 500 cfm that you mention?

Assuming you can tell me where to find it -- a little trip down memory lane into some of the Physics 101 formulas like Bernoulli's law tells me I'll run into a few more problems.

1. The electric motor is going to at least draw 25 amps. Better put in an extra battery or an alternator, or both, to handle it and watch the power that's drawn down by turning the alternator, don't you think?

2. Given the size of the throats in the carb and manifold, Bernoulli's law says the engine is going to need to deal with about an extra half atmosphere of pressure at MSL. That many inches of mercury is a problem for the carb. The reason most turbo charged with carb setups you see suck through the carb rather than blowing through it is carbs generally don't like to be pressurized. It's a lot easier to turbo charge after the carb. The engine isn't going to be happy at its normally aspirated compression ratio either, which is why you see much lower compression ratios on turbocharged or supercharged engines. So besides sealing up the carb, I'm gonna need to use a fuel pump, and change pistons -- or stack a whole lot of head gaskets on top of one another and hope they hold. Probably ought to think about a waste gate and some kind of detonation sensor that will change the advance on the distributor as well. Maybe one of those water injection things. ...but speaking of injection...

If you can tell me where to find that hot setup fan, still seems like a lot of work to do. Wouldn't it be easier to hide away a NOS bottle somewhere and just give it a few squirts when you get ready to pull, then a few more squirts along the way? Holley has a couple of direct port injection setups that might be easily hidden under the intake runners. Ever thought of doing it that way?

let me know...

Steve

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G-MAN

10-07-2002 16:10:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Forced Air Induction in reply to use your head, 10-07-2002 15:42:26  
Please read my post above, and explain to me how a 12 volt motor driving a fan in a gutted oil bath housing is going to deliver anywhere near the airflow, boost and performance of the items I mentioned. I'm not trying to be smart here. I'm genuinely interested in seeing some hard facts on this setup, and a possible explanation of how it can be so effective and yet every tractor, engine and automobile manufacturer I've ever heard of, with all their research & development and highly paid engineers, missed something this simple. I'm sorry, but I until I see hard numbers on a dyno, this idea looks like something that would be advertised on an infomercial or at a booth at the state fair. Your email address seems to suggest that you are a university student or staff member. Perhaps you can give us some college-level knowledge and wisdom to back up your claims. I am also interested in knowing why a fuel pump would be necessary. If you're at all familiar with the workings of a carburetor, you surely know that they function by inducing low pressure at the venturi due to the restriction of the throat and the increased speed of the air travelling through it, which allows the fuel to be pushed into the airstream by atmospheric pressure and atomized with the air. The more air you have flowing, the lower the pressure at the venturi, and the more fuel you are going to draw into the airstream, at least to the point that the jets can deliver it. Running excessive fuel pressure with a carburetor does nothing more than hold the needle off of it's seat and flood the engine with fuel. You also mention that this set-up runs off of electricity. Electrically driven superchargers are used on large powerplant engines, but there is no such thing as free horsepower. If a 200 horsepower motor is required to operate the turbo, 200 horsepower worth of electricity (in Kw) is basically subtracted from the electricity generated. The same would hold true of the set-up you mention. Any horsepower the set-up would generate would be required from the electrical system and alternator/generator. There is no such thing as free lunch or free horsepower. There was recently a guy that wrote into either Hot Rod or Car Craft wondering why they don't use electrically powered blowers on cars. The answer was the same I just gave to you. If it takes 40 horsepower to drive the blower, your electrical system (powered by the engine), is going to have to deliver 40 horsepower to the motor driving the blower, for a net gain of nothing. I look forward to a more thorough and scientific explanation of this miracle power-adding system and it's functional specifications.

P.S. - What if your carb is only rated for 250 cfm? Do you have to double the size of the motor and fan to get the same horsepower, or just run it off a 24 volt system?

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TimC

10-07-2002 20:47:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Forced Air Induction in reply to G-MAN, 10-07-2002 16:10:33  
I have never had the pleasure of working with a 2 holer but it seems to me the biggest problem has always been filling the chamber. So big a volume every time the big valve opens. Volumetric effeciency is the name of the game with any motor designed or intended to create power. 1 hp per cubic inch is not that big of a deal except when you are limited on rpms. I know of a 6 that makes about 230 to 250 at 2500 but closer to 300 at 3000. Things just don't seem to start working good until the rpms start rising and i believe it is all because of volumetric effeciency. Having said all that, if you could raise the manifold pressure at lower rpms and create a suedo ram effect you might get closer to 100 %. That M that posted last week said 550 cfm supply air. His pressure was not measureable on a guage but he also over came atmospheric pressure. Remember the old Ram Air Inductions..

The next thing would be to create a place for that stored charge to hole up until the valve opens and I think you already know how to make it speed up as it goes down the shoot so it will Ram the hole full.

Just food for thought. I might be all wrong but I don't think I am too far off on what you are looking for. V E is one of the biggest keys to getting all that can be got out of what you have to work with.

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MAD DUC

10-08-2002 03:48:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Forced Air Induction in reply to TimC, 10-07-2002 20:47:38  
I think I got it figured out. I'm going to take a furnace blower and 100 feet extension cord and plug it in to the facilities AC . I'll paint the cord brown to blend in with the track. Hmmmm...



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Now i know what he tripped over

10-08-2002 21:45:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Forced Air Induction in reply to MAD DUC, 10-08-2002 03:48:08  
A few weeks back i was pullin my 770 oliver a local fair and the flag man, a big 300lb guy in rolled down rubber boots was tryin to run backwards to keep up with me and fell, the flag went flyin and damned if i didnt have to stop my pull to keep from runnin over the lad. That musta been that brown extension cord your talkin bout that he tripped on Whatya all think LMAO



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