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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

HEY TIMC

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ChadS

07-21-2003 16:03:23




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I was able to repair my block for my H engine. I ended up arc welding the sleeves into the block. I checked the sleeves to make sure there was no distortion, there was none. It took me a long time to do this prodject. I had the deck machined another 10 thousandths to make it true.It looks like new!! If you remember, the deck was not holding the sleeves in place at the top and it stress cracked between the cyls, and around a large water port. I was wondering about JBweld though? If I had to do this again, could JBweld hold the pressure and heat without melting? Anyway, I wanted to tell you that Something Wilder will run again, thanks to your advice!! Thanks Again! ChadS

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TimC

07-22-2003 06:31:02




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 Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-21-2003 16:03:23  
When you bore one out so far and needed help sealing it up on the bottom side JB Weld does wonders. If a step is bored into the block and a matching set is lathed out on the sleeves, when you drive the sleeves down, sop the block with JB and it helps seal the bottom up. I wouldn't think it would help the top hold together but it would help seal the water. The main thing is to create some structural strength in the top of the block by welding. I would have brazed it but if arc welding worked for you then great. Brass has almost the same expansion rate as cast iron and that is why i would prefer brass. Be sure to hone those cyls again to check for distortion.

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a puller

07-22-2003 11:23:22




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 Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-22-2003 06:31:02  
how come a 4 cyl can hold so much more compression then a 2 cylinder? if you have 325psi cranking...how come 2 bangers can only have 220 and then they don't seem to hold the best or have as much power? how does that motor hold up at 325? thanks, a puller



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ChadS

07-22-2003 14:49:34




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 Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to a puller, 07-22-2003 11:23:22  
You know that is a good question!! I would belive that the cam has a little to do with it. I have a fellow puller who pulls a G, He has done his homework on it except for the cam. He was running the stock grind cam in it. He changed the cam grind to a 730 gas spec, and now he has been able to go up a gear in the 6500 mod class and he is not into his torque curve so much. I would say that the amount of vaccum pressure in the JD is a few inches less than a 4cyl due to the large bore size. Alot of JD pullers have put the biggest carbs that they can on the tractors and actually back up on HP and torque because they lose the vaccum pull from the engine. Rpms have a role in the air movement in the JD. If you had a good cam with the right carb, and the engine produces a high compression it sould get closer to the 4cyls vaccum pressure. 2cyl JD tractors need to have the carbs matched to the engine just like the Farmalls do. Sometimes the big carbs don't help the JDs like the 4and6cyl engines do. I hope this helps. ChadS

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a puller

07-22-2003 14:59:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-22-2003 14:49:34  
I know that with about 250psi, a JD A will start to spark-knock on 110 octane gas. I have heard of alot of 4 cyl and 6 cyl tractors that have 300+psi tractors that run on 110. what do you have for fuel in your H? I was just wondering Why this is, and I have no theory to base this on. Thanks for all the input.
a puller



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TimC

07-22-2003 20:45:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to a puller, 07-22-2003 14:59:24  
This is my theory. The intake charge is going to take the shortest path to the cylinder. When ( and i can't remember what a jd head looks like in the bowl) it makes the hard turn around the short radius the fuel is heavier and centrufugal force slings the fuel to the long side radius and then it washed down the cylinder. What happens next is the piston comes back up and you have layers of wet fuel, layers of a stoichmetric charge, layers of plain ole air. That causes the pinging. If the entire charge is a stoichmetric charge and it pings then there are possibliy sharp edges or carbon that is holding heat and causing it.
The other problem with the 2 cyl trying to act like a 4 or 6 with the same cubic inches is the length of the rod required due to the stroke. By comparison it has a short rod. Restricted motors work better with a longer rod because the piston moves away from the head slower initially and for some reason (which slips my memory) it allows the engine to breath better. When you take a 2 or 4 or 6 and stroke it, unless you can run a real short compression height you have to run a short rod. This produces a lot of FMEP (i think that means frictional mean effective pressure). A longer rod keeps the rod stroke ratio in line and you get free HP out of it. I think I am rambling now.

Oh yeah, overlook the spelling errors. If you know what i'm talking about it makes sense.

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ChadS

07-23-2003 17:52:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-22-2003 20:45:35  
I built an H engine a while back for a guy, It was a 4 in bore by 5 3/4 stroke. I used the stock rods in the engine. I wanted to keep the long rods for the exact reason you explained. On my new engine, I had to shorten the rods a bit to compensate for the extra stroke I added. How much do you think this will affect the FMEP? I think it would get a little better because of the rod not laying over too much, should actually free it up a little. Dont you think?

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TimC

07-23-2003 19:26:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-23-2003 17:52:53  
Always go with the longest rod possible, however if you can't run a deck plate you still get more out of it with the cubic inches added from the stroke. You loose a few horsepower from friction and sidewall loading but you gain more with cubic inches.



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Chads

07-23-2003 20:08:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-23-2003 19:26:12  
I think the rods I have now are about 3/4 to an inch shorter than the H rod. I will check this out later to be more precice.



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ChadS

07-23-2003 08:36:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-22-2003 20:45:35  
No you are not rambling!! I know hat you are talking about. If you are able to speed up the air flow (increase vaccum) Maybe the air fuel mix might hold togther longer to fire the cyl better. Have you ever heard of swirl porting? When I ported the head on my H I put in a swirl pattern in the intake runners, Maybe it may work to help a JD? I just wanted to say that I am giving my opinion, I like to discuss things like this. I think there is alot of questions out there, I hope I am able to help anyone I can!! LOL ChadS

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TimC

07-23-2003 09:07:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-23-2003 08:36:32  
I am building a flow bench and would like to measure swirl but don't want to spend the money on a swirl meter. Swirl will make a homogenous mixture, then you can run lean and mean without detonation or pinging.

I talked to a gentleman a few days ago about swirl and he shot me for a loop. To much swirl and velocity stays high in the cyl on intake stroke and when velocity stays high, pressure stays low and cyl filling goes to crap. Not quite figured out this one. I can imagine the mixture making high speed circles around the cylinder and causing a void in the center line of the cylinder but I still have not figured it all out yet.

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ChadS

07-23-2003 17:39:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-23-2003 09:07:06  
I could not imagine an airflow being too fast, unless the carb is too big to mix the air fuel mixture. I would say that there would be an increase in torque due to the change in the flow, It may cause fuel puddling though, not enough air in the mix. I belive that the more air and fuel you can feed an engine the better, but it has to be right. The carb, the right kind of fuel for the rpm level.

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ChadS

07-22-2003 15:28:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to a puller, 07-22-2003 14:59:24  
I run a mixture of 50% 93 octane gas and 50%ethanol!! Slow burning fuel that makes power and torque.



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a puller

07-22-2003 18:43:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-22-2003 15:28:42  
how many octane would this make? I know the ethonal is a real dry fuel, is it ever hard on the motor? I looked at the post, and am lookin forward to the responces. thanks, a puller



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ChadS

07-22-2003 18:57:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to a puller, 07-22-2003 18:43:19  
Ethanol is actualy an oily fuel. I would say that it is around 105-108 octane. It burns clean and slow. I have torn down my Hs, and the head and pistons are clean. Methanol is a fuel that you have to run a upper cyl lubricant in. It is corrosive, but man does it make power!



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ChadS

07-22-2003 15:21:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to a puller, 07-22-2003 14:59:24  
check out the post I left for Earl S. I have a theory about this. let me know what you think. I am on YT right now!!



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TimC

07-22-2003 14:27:48




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 Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to a puller, 07-22-2003 11:23:22  
I am probably not qualified to answer this but here is my guess. Two cyl has more square inches of surface area per square inch of pressure.

If you can reach way out there for this you might get my meaning.

Three wheeler tire=10 psi.
Tractor tire=12 to 16.
Car tire 30.

An air bag will lift a car with just a few pounds.

With big cylinders 300 psi exerts a tremendous amount of pressure across a larger surface and something has to move.

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ChadS

07-22-2003 15:26:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-22-2003 14:27:48  
I agree. I think a 4cyl engine operates quicker when it comes to intake and exhaust flow. Smaller componets in the engine makes it easier to build pressure in the 4cyl. JD does not have the same amout of time the 4cyl does to complete the 4 stroke pattern to create power. Just my opinion, I think that there is alot to look at when it comes to the carb and cam grind for a JD. What do you think TimC?

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TimC

07-22-2003 20:56:54




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-22-2003 15:26:21  
I can't nail it down but I suppose there is a catch 22. Big cubes need a big plenium, to much plenium and the fuel will fall out of a state of suspension. The wrong cam timing and you drop vacume. Vacume is what causes mother natures air want to get inside the motor.

Disclaimer, Just Theories...

In a few weeks I will have two new programs. One is called Engine Expert and the other is Dynomation. The first program will layout the requirement the second will tell you runner length, exhaust length, cam timing. I forget all the details but required cfm, minimal port cross sectionl area, ignition advance, rod length and how to set and engine up and move the torque curve where you want it will come out and be withing 5% or less of actual dyno figures.

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ChadS

07-23-2003 08:28:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-22-2003 20:56:54  
I have heard of those programs before. Great tool for what a puller has to go through to make it run good!! It will provide a great starting point and go from there! I was at a pull in Harford KY, years back, anyway there was a JD A that sounded like it fired each time the piston reached TDC. I would imagine that the cam had somthing to do with it, but how, and why?



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ChadS

07-23-2003 10:24:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-23-2003 08:28:38  
Sorry about that, This JD sounded like it was running like a 2 stroke instead of a four stroke. I could be describing the engine pattern wrong but It was the first JD I have ever heard run like that. Its hard to say what they did to it.



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TimC

07-23-2003 10:39:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-23-2003 10:24:34  
Now I know what you are talking about and I have heard about a JD that sounded like that from someone a while back. I never figured out what could make that sound, I believe i asked about the exhaust and the stock manifold was still in place.

Just for giggles, i heard about a Moline up past you that a canuck had with two flywheels. They said you could count the revelutions on the fan blade at the other end of the track but it just refused to be gut checked.

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ChadS

07-23-2003 10:55:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-23-2003 10:39:40  
There is JD G in Northern Indiana that has 2 flywheels together, I guess that it crates more inertia to keep the engine turning. I have seen the moline you are talking about, pretty wild.



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TimC

07-23-2003 08:55:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-23-2003 08:28:38  
I'm not sure i follow you on that one.



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a puller

07-23-2003 06:45:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-22-2003 20:56:54  
are these computer programs? thanks, A puller



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TimC

07-23-2003 08:54:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to a puller, 07-23-2003 06:45:12  
Yeah, just search Dynomation and you will get plenty of info on them. Engine Expert may be a little harder to locate information on but it was designed by Alan Lockhead. That name should tell you something about his knowledge.



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ChadS

07-22-2003 10:15:41




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 Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-22-2003 06:31:02  
We used Eutectic rods used for weldin eaton fuller parts at the foundry. That is all I can say about the welding rods. I heated the block with a torch, but not red hot, just enought to create a hear exchange when the welder hit it. It welded very well. I practiced on an old block before I tried my pulling motor. I ground off the weld with a hand grinder to see it it was pitted any place. It was not. I also extencively monotored the bore for distortion. I had not sleeve distotion at all! I was happy about that. I think it did not warp because it was not so hotwhen I welded it. I was easily machined off, and looks like it was never welded. I tried to braze the sleeve in, but I could not control the splatter down the sleeve, I guess I need more practice on gas welding!!

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TimC

07-22-2003 21:01:02




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 Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-22-2003 10:15:41  
Next time go to wally world and buy a large can of Pam cooking oil spray.

It would not have hurt it to normalize it with heat again after you were finished then wrap it in insulation until it cooled off. Maybe not necessary but oh well, its just time.



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ChadS

07-23-2003 08:21:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-22-2003 21:01:02  
Yes, I did reheat the block after I welded it. You are right, if it cools too fast in open air it will crack. I was leary about the arc welding but after I saw the results on the practice block, I am convinced that it would work, We will see in time. Does PAM really work to help keep the splatter off the cyls? Just wondering?



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TimC

07-23-2003 09:00:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-23-2003 08:21:28  
My machinist friend stopped buying the comercial splatter sprays. I watched him weld up an allis crank and he never even had a pebble on the mains next to the rod journal.

My dad told me about the Eutectic rods years ago he had to use to weld the big arm on a payloader. Nickle would not hold at all.

Did you use a dialbore guage to check trueness.



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ChadS

07-23-2003 10:51:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-23-2003 09:00:18  
Yes, I did. I had no distortion at all. I did heat the block, 1 cyl at a time. I heated the block around the sleeve to start a heat exchange. Then I welded the block/sleeve. I see what you are saying about the welding rods. The welding rods I used are called Eutectic+Castolin. The box says that it is for nodular iron castings, housings and foundry defects. The name of the rods are Xuper Life Alloy. We have a local foundry that uses them on their cast iron engine blocks and according to the welders that use these rods say they are the best rods for welding engine blocks. The rods worked/blended very well with the block and sleeve, no pits, no cracks etc. Me personally, I know that there is a right way and a wrong way to reair engine blocks. I know that oven methods, and brazing is probably best. Here is why I choose the arc welder. I have my block filled with block filler, I had contacted a shop that specializes in block, cast iron repair. they would heat the block in an oven then perform the repair. They said that the block filler I used would probably melt, or harded and crack. So I decided to try a cooler method. You know, when you try to weld 2 different metals together you can see it in the weld. It will either pit, burn, or not weld at all. With this welding rod, It blended together like butter. I Tried to break the practice blocks weld, with a hammer and chislel. I could not break it, or crack the weld.On the practice block, I used a hand grinder to grind off the weld, The weld was like grinding cast iron. it was soft, and was not pitted anywhere. I did this to all 4 cyls on the practice block, and got the same result. It looks like it has never been welded at all!! I am not tring to pull anyones leg about this, I talked to my dad about the payloader iron, and he thinks that the rods would not work. I would not know if the payloader is a malable type cast. Is the iron they use in engine blocks, and the iron they use in equipment, different? Just wondering, Later ChadS

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TimC

07-23-2003 12:26:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-23-2003 10:51:47  
I don't have a clue. Just that I heard the name eutectic/stick welder and some sort of cast iron.

Thanks for going out on a limb and doing it the way you wanted anyway. You may have inovated a new process. I have a friend with a 6 cyl at 600 cid. The block is splitting on a brand new build and the engine builder (not me) may be a little hard headed. Compression is blowing into the water jacket like there is nothing stopping it.He wants to just reinstall new sleeves and deck the block and forget the O-rings.

My problem is that I have to keep it running right but don't get to make the decision on how it is built. I am sure it is going to just split down the middle because the sleeves are .125 thick and the distance between the sleeves is maybe .015. I may holler at you in a couple weeks and get the info on your rods or just braze it.

Parts and Peices 600CIDIH... You have probably already seen this motor.

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ChadS

07-23-2003 13:51:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-23-2003 12:26:23  
You bet I have heard of "Parts and Pieces"! I tried to change the sleeves but the block would not hold together. To be honest with you, I rally did not have a choice on how to repair it. I called over 20 places that I know that can repair cast engine blocks, NO ONE WOULD TOUCH IT!! That's OK, though. I have welded 350 chevys with this type of rod, worked well! Like I said I was leary about this procedure, I would have never tried this if I could have found someone else to do it. I had the same problem with water and compression. The block actually separated from the sleeves where it cracked. I ran the same motor for years without reinforcing the deck, it can only take so much abuse. Do you block fill the engine you are working with? That helps on the bottom side, but you got to work with the deck as well, so I have learned. The block looks great, If I could put a picture on this forum, I would, I have not figued that out yet. What do they use for a head gasket on the 600in IH?

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TimC

07-23-2003 14:29:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to ChadS, 07-23-2003 13:51:07  
The copper would probably work but he just broke down and ordered a K1000 style that has the fire ring. That and I believe they decided to omit the orings this time should get this beast on the track. We have run the motor in the shop and it sounds increadible but we'll see. I'll send you a pic without the head sometime and one of the head.
2.300 intake valves.



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ChadS

07-23-2003 16:34:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY TIMC in reply to TimC, 07-23-2003 14:29:34  
Sounds like you are on your way to the full pull line!! My nieghbor has a super stock Allis Chalmers 180 he is putting back together today, Broke a piston again, 3rd one this year. Keeps putting more boost to it. I hope he gets it going soon. Tractor is called "The Smoker" .



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