Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Discussion Forum

Length of intake tubes (all brands)

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
burns

09-13-2001 19:52:16




Report to Moderator

I have friends that pull in our area that have equipped their tractors with very long intake runners. A farmall M that has a tube extending back almost to the clutch pedal and a JD A with a tube running back just shy of the starter. I am thinking about changing the intake system on my tractor but certainly not this type. But both guys believe that they notice more lugging torque. Their theory is that it straightens the air more while creating a more swirled air thus creating a move atomized mixture of gas and air.

I really don't know but I am curious if someone has more experience with this long intake runner

Flyin Farmall does this post cover other brands, too. 8^) Just having fun

Pray for the victims/families and our country.

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Gman

09-18-2001 06:24:53




Report to Moderator
 Re: Length of intake tubes (all brands) in reply to burns, 09-13-2001 19:52:16  
Burns---How have you been doing. Chrysler ram chargers had the big long induction manifold on there 426 hemi-engine back in the early sixtys,one four barell set over inthe far right rear of engine compartment and the othr four barrell set in the far left hand corner of engine compartment (front),I don't have any specs on this type of induction versus the center of engine mounted carbs,but they where the car to beat back in the sixtys so there must be something to this long runners.Burns have you had any trouble with the MSD box,the last two times out I'll hook on to sled and go fifty feet and the engine just shuts down,then start right back up,it's done this four times and a little embarsing,put it on dyno runs perfect????? ??Gman

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mike Aylward

09-14-2001 16:49:34




Report to Moderator
 Re: Length of intake tubes (all brands) in reply to burns, 09-13-2001 19:52:16  
As long as we are talking theory here, I have some questions. Is the RPM range we are talking here so low that this effect wouldn't be noticeable? And would it be possible that friction losses within the pipes would overcome any gain from this effect? I have always thought the reason for longer runners was to give the air a chance to "straighten out", that is for the turbulence at the intake to calm down. Eliminating any square corners in the intake system looks like a worthier goal. Just my two cents worth (and worth each penny..:-) Mike

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gary

09-14-2001 12:29:10




Report to Moderator
 Re: Length of intake tubes (all brands) in reply to burns, 09-13-2001 19:52:16  
Do you know anyone who's done a before and after
HP test? I'm betting on a close to stock low RPM tractor
it won't help.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jerry B

09-16-2001 15:09:56




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Length of intake tubes (all brands) in reply to Gary, 09-14-2001 12:29:10  
Gary,
I would suspect you are right. In order to get a useful air velocity in the intake runner with near stock rpms and cmf, the runner itself might have to be of such a small diameter as to offset any potential gains or in a worst case scenario, actually reduce the power.

Another factor that might be of concern is the fact that most rules and somtimes engine design, do not allow you to move the carb very much, thus reducing your options as to runner lenght and carb placment.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jerry B

09-14-2001 06:20:03




Report to Moderator
 Re: Length of intake tubes (all brands) in reply to burns, 09-13-2001 19:52:16  
Burns,

According to what we learned years ago from drag racing is that lower rpms need long runners and high rpms need short runners.

This is all based on the fact that a column of moving air has momentum. When the intake valve closes the moving air stops at the valve but father up the column the air continues to move and push against the air immediately behind the valve. This "stacking" of air leads to an increase in pressure at the valve. When the valve opens the air enters the cylinder uner pressure rather than a vacuume. That, in turn, puts more fuel/air mixture into the cylinder during the intake stroke. The long column of moving air will continue to enter the cylinder even as the piston rises as it begins the compression stroke until the valve is finally closed.

The trick here is to balance the length of the runners with the rpm. This "super charging" effect works very well at 1 and only 1 rpm. Any other speed and the pressure pulse and the valve timing will be off a little.

Mopar used the twin four barrel carbs on the cross ram intake to good effect years ago. It was availible in two different runner lengths depending on what your anticipated application was. They worked very well in a narrow rpm range, either high or low, depending on the runner length, but outside of that range they didn't function any better than a good cast aluminum intake.

If you know the rpm at which you entend to run you JD, you could "do the math" and determine what runner length (and diameter) would function best.

As far as "swirling" you don't want turbulence in an intake manifold. You want clean, straight movement of the air column. Turbulence is only needed in the combustion chamber. That is why most high compression engines use a "squish area" between the head and the piston top. This set up squishes the air toward the spark plug and is supposed to induce a swirling effect to better facilitate combustion.

Try it and let us know how it goes.

Jerry

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
burns

09-15-2001 17:33:08




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Length of intake tubes (all brands) in reply to Jerry B, 09-14-2001 06:20:03  
Jerry I have been doing a little head scratching. I am getting a theoretical CFM range of 90-220. But when you compare a 225 cu in cylinder to a 52 cu in cylinder, I am not sure if the theoretical formula for cfm can be used in antique tractors. I makes sense that it would but I am not so sure.

I am not concerned about not being able to feed my engine. I am confused on how to determine runner length and diameter.

Steve Crum felt that a 2 1/2" diameter runner would create enough velocity and air interia for my size engine. Steve has done his home work on the intake/exhaust velocities so I am trusting his judgement.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Richard

09-14-2001 09:26:57




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Length of intake tubes (all brands) in reply to Jerry B, 09-14-2001 06:20:03  
Jerry, Burns: You are both right however you have left out ONE important fact of these old tractors vs. this fabulous technology: All of the old tractor I know of have siamesed intake runners, ie two cylinders share a runner to the carb. This successfully shots down total utilizing the Helmholtz effect. Have you determined how to overcome this?



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jerry B

09-16-2001 15:01:22




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Length of intake tubes (all brands) in reply to Richard, 09-14-2001 09:26:57  
You are correct in most cases, however 12 port engine heads as found on Oliver 1855 gas as well as other Oliver models could use this technique.

9 port heads wont work this way.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Richard

09-16-2001 17:02:31




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Length of intake tubes (all brands) in reply to Jerry B, 09-16-2001 15:01:22  
Yes, the 12 port is the exception that proves the rule.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JDGnut

09-17-2001 09:21:01




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Length of intake tubes (all brands) in reply to Richard, 09-16-2001 17:02:31  
Most of the examples you are using the long runner is after the carb, where the air/fuel has already mixed.. Especially on a carb where the air has to change directions in the carb, I don't think it is going to make that bigger of a difference.. put it on a dyno and rig up some PVC pipe that will side to different lengths, to find out.. I think that every tractor and combination is going to be different.. Good luck..
JDGnut

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Flyin Farmall

09-13-2001 23:58:55




Report to Moderator
 Re: Length of intake tubes (all brands) in reply to burns, 09-13-2001 19:52:16  
yeah this will do.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy