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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

A little Natpa history help please?

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larry

12-04-2003 20:33:30




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Now I am new to posting on this board, but if you guys would answer a few questions for me, I would really appreciate it. First off, who is this Bair with the 460, what is his motor, is it a stock block? Do the rules allow it? I understand he used a newer diesel motor from a 666 or so, if thats the case how can that be legal, that series motor never came in gas form. Some history on some of these kind of problems is what I would like to know, thanks guys.

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greenweenie

12-06-2003 16:22:18




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 Re: A little Natpa history help please? in reply to larry, 12-04-2003 20:33:30  
I'm going to give you a little NATPA history, the tech offical are Rich Wenzig and Bob Bryant. They have been all over Bill Bear like a dirty shirt. All this sputter about an illegal tractor and all the rumors are pure nonsense. This tractor was built according to NATPA rules, but that's not to say that it wasn't built on the edge. If there is anybody at fault, it is the NATPA division V pullers. They make up the rules with the exception of safety issues, themselves. Does this look like sour grapes to you? It looks that way to me. And, as far as a cross-flow head goes, they are mass producing them now to fit the Oliver engines on irrigation pumps. Who would like to bet that you'll see an Oliver 88 or 880 with one of these heads on them before you ever see them on the first irrigation pump? So, quit your sniviling all you Oliver people, that have dominated tractor pulling for the past 15 years, there are some new kids in town and they are riding red tractors.

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A.P.

12-07-2003 08:50:44




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 Re: Re: A little Natpa history help please? in reply to greenweenie, 12-06-2003 16:22:18  
I suggest you reread these postings. No body has been slamming the NATPA or really complaining about Bear's tractor. Some one just asked a simple question and a civil discussion has been taking place. I know that is some times unusual for the is board and this particular subject but that is what is happening.

Regards,
A.P.



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88Power

12-06-2003 19:51:39




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 Re: Re: A little Natpa history help please? in reply to greenweenie, 12-06-2003 16:22:18  
Are you talking about cross-flow gas heads to fit a 4-main block? If so, who and why are they mass-producing them? The GK195U head is a pretty decent head for a siamese port type head on an 88 block. If you want a decent head for an 88, just drill out a diesel head or put on a 12 port gas head. Of course none of this is NATPA legal, nor is this cross-flow head that you're talking about.



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TimC

12-05-2003 06:27:27




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 Re: A little Natpa history help please? in reply to larry, 12-04-2003 20:33:30  
I don't know for a fact because I have never photographed his motor and researched it but this is the grapevine message I have. The rules say block has to be of the same brand and same length. Some people say the diesel is not the same length as the original block in a 460. The machined area at the back of the motor(where mounting plate attaches)and the machined area on the front (where the timing gear cover attaches) on the front of the motor is a set number of inches. Somewhere around 28 to 30 inches. If the diesel block from any I-H peice of equipment can be machined down to this spec the rules say it is legal. The heads (as I heard it) are from a V 6 or 8 engine of the I-H flavor that have probably been furnace brazed or welded to make a 1 peice head which is a cross flow. The only thing in I see wrong would be if he were running headers. Rules say exhaust manifolds must be of the same material. Cast iron is a requirement but peicing together sections of cast welded to make a header is no a big challenge either. Not that it matters anyway because their are more 460's being built right now if not already completed that will be the same setup. This presents a disadvantage for the waukesha guys until someone figures out how to get 750 cubic inches in a confined space. However it really isn't worth 30 to 50 thousand dollars.

That my story and I'm (not) sticking to it. Be advised this is all just gossip.

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Jeff

12-05-2003 16:44:33




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 Re: Re: A little Natpa history help please? in reply to TimC, 12-05-2003 06:27:27  
again just some more of the gossip but I think that after the debate of the block died down the head was debated because it is off of a Ford V-8 and welded together or something. The problem was that the head was never offered from IH or something like that and i think the rules say it has to be from the original manufacturer or a recognized aftermarket part which coming from Ford it isn't.

I only went to one NATPA pull last year and all that hot setup and argument didn't fo him any good as he got beat by another IH without the weird block/ head in it. Now if he had taken the head off of and IH truck ..... .... hahahah!

Oh well to be honest, as long as there is competition there will be arguements and debates. heck I'd rather be at a plow days anyway, no trophys and more time in the seat pulling a load listening to that smooth six working!

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A.P.

12-05-2003 21:42:23




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 Re: Re: Re: A little Natpa history help please? in reply to Jeff, 12-05-2003 16:44:33  
Actually the head is supposed to be a couple of cut down and welded back together IH truck heads, not Ford heads at all. That is what is supposed to make it legal with the present rules. Not really a lot different from taking the manifolds from one engine and cutting them down and welding them back together for another engine.

A.P.



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ChadS

12-06-2003 13:43:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: A little Natpa history help please in reply to A.P., 12-05-2003 21:42:23  
All that effort,, he should have built am aluminum head. Sounds like an interesting tractor to see pull.. Is it a gas or diesil? What engine block is he running? ChadS



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A.P.

12-07-2003 05:28:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A little Natpa history help pl in reply to ChadS, 12-06-2003 13:43:28  
Yes it would have and would have made more power too but it would not have been an IH gas head. A factory head must be used according to the rules but they can be modified. All they supposedly did was modify it more than the rest. Years ago the same thing was done by/for the drag racers running 300 Ford six cylinders in the wilder classes. A head was built using sections of 351 Cleveland heads frunace brazed together.

A.P.

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ChadS

12-07-2003 05:50:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A little Natpa history hel in reply to A.P., 12-07-2003 05:28:59  
HMMM, I did not know that you could do that in the NATPA, I was thinking of using a diesil head on a gas engine and making it a wedge engine. Awful lot of work there,, glad it works though,,, Have you seen it pull? Is he a 4th gear tractor or a 5th gear tractor? Chads



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A.P.

12-07-2003 08:44:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A little Natpa history in reply to ChadS, 12-07-2003 05:50:40  
The rules do not preclude it. You just need to get better at reading the rules. Of course just because the rules do not make it specifically illegal doesn't mean that they will let you pull. I think it is just an extension of what a lot of pullers have been doing with manifolds: cutting a maifold apart, shortening it and welding it back to gether to get larger better flowwing runners.

The NATPA rules do not allow a diesel head to be modified to run gas. That is why Bear and other tractors do not use the better flowing, cross-flow heads even in division 5. Olivers can run the 195 Waukesha head and 12 port gas heads only in div.5. Olivers and Molines are really the only two brands with head restrictions. It's been that way since day one in the NATPA. I think it long past time when this should be changed. Farmalls can run 450 LP heads or the better than stock Lemmons "reproductions".

A.P.

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greenweenie

12-08-2003 18:27:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A little Natpa his in reply to A.P., 12-07-2003 08:44:20  
The question was, have you ever seen Bill Bear's tractor run?



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A.P.

12-09-2003 18:28:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A little Natpa in reply to greenweenie, 12-08-2003 18:27:10  
The real question is why are you trying to change the subject? Please tell me what it is specifically that I stated that is incorrect and what the engine/tractor/head/etc. really is. Not your opinion mind you, but cold hard fact.

Regards,
A.P.



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greenweenie

12-10-2003 17:32:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A little N in reply to A.P., 12-09-2003 18:28:39  
I'll give you the facts, if you really want to know, exactly what's in Bear's tractor, I suggest you contact Paul Marlett or Greg Lemmons at the Lemmon's shop. These are the only two people besides Bear that know what is in his tractor. My opinion, your opinion, and all these other opinions is just that, an opinion. The reason I asked you if you had ever seen Bear's tractor, is that I'd like to know how the rest of these folks can look through these side shields and see what all has been done to his tractor. Personally, I don't have x ray vision, but I have seen his tractor many times and I have seen it pull. So, I would say I'm farther ahead than most of the people who are just curious with a lot of speculation.

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A.P.

12-11-2003 02:29:54




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A litt in reply to greenweenie, 12-10-2003 17:32:13  
In other words he could be running a Red Diamond engine or a DT 466 converted to gas for all you know. You don't know anything more than anyone else who has been posting in this particular group of posts. We all know it runs real hard. Don't know us with your lack of knowledge and I for one will not knock you.



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