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I hate more rules but........

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Troy

10-21-2001 20:42:25

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The club I pull with has some basic rules. 20% over on rpm and no hp limit. All the same rules for drawbar distances and height. Where we are starting to get some complaining about aluminum radiators, fuel tanks, and on some wc's frames. We now have 4 or 5 homemade single front wheels. Where can I get a good set of rules that keep the most pullers pulling and that are not going to be smoothering?! What are your thoughts on the matter? Thanks Troy

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misery

10-25-2001 15:39:19

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Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Troy, 10-21-2001 20:42:25

our club has a RPM rule. you get d'qed if you are over 700 on the pto.keeps the big guys in check. works good for us. just a thought.

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What about rim width??

10-23-2001 10:28:08

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Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Troy, 10-21-2001 20:42:25

There was mention of tire size but what about the width of the rim. Do any of your clubs state the size the rim width can be??

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Jerry B

10-23-2001 06:31:34

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Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Troy, 10-21-2001 20:42:25

Let me see..... I spend a few grand on building a tractor, drive a hundred miles to a pull, pay $10-$20 to hook to the sled each time, win some, loose some, get in an argument over a "rules enterpretation" should I slip up and beat one the "choosen few", get hooked to a dyno,have the club presidents son operating the dyno choke the tractor out so he and his buddies can get a good laugh, break a part on the tractor when he does this, burry my fist into his smart a$$ mouth, get into a fight with what is left of him and his buddies and dear ol' dad, find out I was legal to start with yet get DQ'ed for "unsportsman like behavior", get invited to never return, get a good case of diaherea from the gourmet food served there by the club pres' wife, all the while keeping in mind the reason I am doing this is to share quality time with people and have fun?

Geeze guys I can hardly wait! When and where do we pull next! *L*

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burns

10-23-2001 10:26:41

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Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Jerry B, 10-23-2001 06:31:34

AMEN I agree 98%. Our club has some of the best homemade goodies. Matter of fact if I don't watch myself I'm going to end up pulling the next class up.

As much as I don't care for the mph rule, it does level the fairness between tractors with a creeper first gear versus a fast gear. RPM limit and tire size seems to be the best way to go.

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Jim (Mi)

10-23-2001 11:49:02

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Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to burns, 10-23-2001 10:26:41

I did my first pull this year, and got spanked. I would rather lose and go out and pull full speed, than the MPH restriction. Not only that, I brought along family that would of otherwise not have ever attended a pull, and they all agreed that watching the MPH was boring. I attended another pull with my little cousins and they loved watching the tractor go fast down the track.

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Dale G

10-23-2001 13:42:47

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Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Jim (Mi), 10-23-2001 11:49:02

I agree that having a 3.5 mph speed limit like our club has is boring to watch,but it also helps a lot of us guys that don't have a bunch of money to spend on our tractors still be fairly competitive.Our club does also offer a 5000# any gear class for the guys that do want to go fast.

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Gary

10-23-2001 04:35:30

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Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Troy, 10-21-2001 20:42:25

As you can see from the posts below there are no simple answers.I feel the word "stock" should be banished from any set of rules on antique pulling.
Stock means just as it came from the factory 40,50
or more years ago,there are NO stock tractors at pulls.You don't think so.Do you burn unleaded gas,
have you put in NAPA points,do you use high detergent oil?etc,etc,etc.Looking "stock" is pretty subjective and open for lots of interpertations.I know of tractors that look stock
and probably have 3 times the orginal HP,and others that look "modified" that are pretty close to orginal HP.Speed limits are the great equalizer
why not have a speed limit class and a no speed
limit class?I would make the pullers choose one or
the other and not let them pull in both.Keep in mind the more rules you have the bigger headache of enforcement and the more oppuntities to skirt
the rules

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Jerry B

10-23-2001 06:36:49

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Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Gary, 10-23-2001 04:35:30

Gary, you are absolutly right: speed limits do equalize things. But what I don't like is every club seems to have a different idea of what speeds to use. 3, 3.5 or 4 mph? The higher speeds? 6 or 8? 10 or 12? Seems it would be easier to set a a tractor to pull at 1 or 2 speed ranges rather than having to "adjust" to different speeds for different areas of the country.
Just my thoughts.

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Gary

10-23-2001 07:36:13

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Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Jerry B, 10-23-2001 06:36:49

I agree,but I don't think standardized rules are
going to happen,not where I pull anyway.I pull under about 10 different sets of rules in a years
time which I guess makes it more challenging,what I
really hate is having 2 or 3 sets of rules at the same pull!I think there is a certain element in antique tractor pulling that have more interest
in enforcing rules than they do pulling tractors.

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Jerry B

10-23-2001 11:26:12

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Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Gary, 10-23-2001 07:36:13

Sounds like the club member keep changing the rules to allow their tractors to have an advantage or to just keep others from being able to compete in the first place.
Things like that are a good way to discourage participation by new/young members. They won't want to mess with the hassles and headaches. They will just build a hot Chevy/Ford/Mopar and let the antique tractors go by the way side.
Kinda sad

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Steve

10-25-2001 21:07:55

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Jerry B, 10-23-2001 11:26:12

In Oregon both organizations have very basic rules, the two most important to equalize the field; 5 mph, and tractors can not pull in classes lighter than factory shipping weight.

Steve

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Gary

10-26-2001 04:07:21

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Steve, 10-25-2001 21:07:55

The trouble with the tractor shipping weight rule
is that every source for shipping weight is different and can vary as much as 1500lbs,this is just another rule that causes problems in my opinion.Put the tractor on the scale and put them in whatever weight class they fall into,a pound of alumium will not give you more traction than a
pound of iron.

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G Taylor

10-26-2001 09:13:59

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Gary, 10-26-2001 04:07:21

If weight stripping is allowed the ground speed rule is vital. All things other factors identical the 5mph tractor will beat the 1-1/2 mph tractor.

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Dale G

10-22-2001 14:12:34

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Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Troy, 10-21-2001 20:42:25

If you set a speed limit at 3.5 mph like our club does and in each class you all weigh the same,with a tire size limit,it doesn't really matter what they replace with aluminum.As long as you have enough horsepower to spin out,you are all equal.

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Troy

10-22-2001 15:15:33

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Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Dale G, 10-22-2001 14:12:34

We have a wc in the 2700# class pulling against 8n fords, m jds, h jds, and b farmalls. He runs 3rd gear and just play's with the throttle. Homemade front with aluminum frame rails.

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Jerry B

10-22-2001 06:15:24

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Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Troy, 10-21-2001 20:42:25

Simple...2 classes: Factory stock or modified. As long as it LOOKS stock with stock parts on the outside it is factory stock. If it has homemade front ends, frame rails, electric fans with out the factory fan, aluminum radiators, pressed wheels where cast iron centers were stock, ect, ect, ect, then it is modified.

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Puller

10-22-2001 11:28:56

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Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Jerry B, 10-22-2001 06:15:24

Jerry B you almost had it right! Two classes 1. BONE stock (checked,verified, and sealed) 2. Modified for everthing else from M&W kits to Lemmons specials. Any other rules will leave room for creative thinking and finger pointing. Honest promoters and offficials sure help too, but that's another topic.

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Jerry B

10-22-2001 12:08:34

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Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Puller, 10-22-2001 11:28:56

Puller.

It is rather difficult to determine what is "bone stock" without an engine tear down. That is why our club has rules that limit tires size, weight location, hitch style ect for farm stock.

If you have a 100 HP Oliver 88 that looks "Charles City original" but require it to be on 13.6 x 38 tires with a stock hitch and draw bar with weights behind the front edge of the front tires, limit it's rpm to 10% over stock ect., then about 30-50 of those horses out of the 100 Hp is going to be wasted. If you can't get a grip on the track to use all the power and torque, then why build that big of an engine to start with, right?

That is why we don't let the atiques in the farm stock class but let the farm stockers in any other class they want. We farm stockers will be out classed but, hey, once in a while an antique will slip up and loose and one of us farm stockers will be there for the win! :) don't happen very often but when it does...you should see the faces!

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puller

10-22-2001 14:23:32

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Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Jerry B, 10-22-2001 12:08:34

Well your right in a way Jerry but, I didn't say it was easy to do. Checking rpm, displacement, cam profiles etc. takes some equipment and time. The NHRA did it for years in certain classes and sealed the motor at several points so it couldn't be fooled with, that way they didn't have to tear down every stocker that showed up at every race and ensured(hopefully) that all cars were going by the rules. Other racers had the option of requesting a teardown of a winning car. If the guy was illeagal there was a big penalty. If he wasn't you lose the money you posted to tear him down and it qwent to the guy for gaskets general P.I.T.A. Etc They did have one thing that Tractor pulling doesn't have, a good, solid orginazation.

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burns

10-22-2001 17:02:52

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to puller, 10-22-2001 14:23:32

I don't know about your clubs but the payout for a pull in W. Pa amounts to less than $20 for first (($50 is the most I've seen)) but usually is a plaque or ribbon. I'll take the DQ before I'll tear down my engine for a darn ribbon.

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Poor Farm Boy

10-23-2001 10:22:47

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to burns, 10-22-2001 17:02:52

Burns you need to drive down to the western part of WV, and Eastern border with Ohio fair circuit. If you've got a hopped up G, and if you enjoy cheating now and then, you'd fit in like family. It's an 11 pull circuit and there's usually between 75-150 for first per class, and some counties pay down as far as 4th and 5th place. I got 5th at one pull this year and got 20 dollars. Ofcourse hook fees are around 15 dollars a class. Shoot you can spend close to 350 dollars a summer in hook fees, for just 2 classes. Needless to say my wife dicourrages the pulling of my stock farm tractor with a vengance. as far as rules go currently there is no speed limit, ofcourse this is farm class pulling,not antique. Tiresize is up to 15.5x38 for 5 and 6 thousand 18.4x38 for 75 hundren and up, everyone within their prospective weight limit, and drawbar highth of 20 inches, stock "appearance",working PTO,and let the boys pull. there's no enforced RPM rule, but if you go over 3,000 there's safety equipment like a machined flywheel, or scatter blanket you are supposed to have along with dead man throttle, and a few various other junk Items. It all makes for some fast pulling, especially in the five , six thousand and seventy five hundren pound classes. The nine and the ten thousand pound classes seem to be more tame; that's where I pull, and on any given night anyone can beat the other. There is even a turbo class for nine and ten thousand pound classes, that is wicked to watch. They had a radar gun at the last pull and one 1066 was like 14.25 miles an hour. Not bad for a 125 HP tractor.{more like 425 HP, if not more}. If they don't change the rules this fall, I guess it will be open pulling again next year. If so I'll post back a schedule in the spring for anyone that's interested. I'd like to see some truely hot tractors come into the area and start spanking the hot rods, so they would want to create and enforce some rules, but we will have wait and see. Later on Burns PFB

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Neil Powell

10-24-2001 06:44:14

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Poor Farm Boy, 10-23-2001 10:22:47

I don't understand all these rules, rules, rules. Everybody has to be the winner I guess. I think that motorsports are fun whether you win or not. If joe blow has more money than me and beats me on the track, so be it. I'm going to have fun tinkering with and running my tractor, and if I happen to find some more money maybe I'll hop up the rig a little bit. The ultra competitive nature of this really baffles me. Pulling tractors is fun, period. It doesn't matter how hard you work at it, for any given contest in life, there will always be those that are going to beat you and those that you will beat. Get used to it.

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PFB

10-24-2001 11:08:23

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Neil Powell, 10-24-2001 06:44:14

Sounds like someone with too much money. You forget there are those amoung you who see farm tractor pulling as an extention of their agricultural heritage, verses a MOTORSPORT. I believe in a fair playing field where Stock farm tractor pullers compete for fun and fellowship, and alittle bragging rights. Anyother type of pulling and you might as well be drag racing cars, because it's no longer about the tractors, or driving ability, it's about money. Just my oppinion but thats what's great about America, I can have one, even if it's different from yours. Gentlemen,

PFB

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burns

10-23-2001 15:48:59

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Poor Farm Boy, 10-23-2001 10:22:47

Cheating?????

I have never heard of the word. Is that another name for "personal interpretation of the rules"?

8^)

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Gary

10-23-2001 05:06:06

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to burns, 10-22-2001 17:02:52

Hey burns give me a list of these big money pulls!
Alot of the pulls I go to I spend a 100 bucks for the day that don't give me anything but a hard time
and a case of the "sheets" from the bad food.Useing
the same economics I could come up and pull with you guys as long as I don't spend over a 150 bucks!

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puller

10-22-2001 18:48:07

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to burns, 10-22-2001 17:02:52

Ok I probably have dumb ideas but it worked for drag race organizations with the same basic problems that pulls have. Burns, in a tear down you don't get torn down to the bare block. In our drag car it meant you had to take the manifold off and the valve cover(s) We would remove two push rods from the cylinder of their choice and they had a devise that screwed into the spark plug hole that determained the displacement of that cylinder. They would check the lift and duration of the cam and cylinder pressure against a chart. The money we got for being legal was a lot more than a set of V C gaskets and the P.I.T.A. aspects of the whole deal. Yes people messed with their cams some (which affects cylinder pressure at cranking)and some guys spent a lot of money buying 20 sets of heads to find the best stock set. etc but I will tell you one thing, a person could show up at a meet and not get embarassed because there were no rules or because of cheating. You might get beat, but you would not get embarrased, unless it was your own fault. This is not the case at the antique pulls I have attended. Yes we ran for a 50 cent trophy and enough money to eat on the way home back then too, just like the pulls now.

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burns

10-22-2001 19:32:49

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to puller, 10-22-2001 18:48:07

I have heard of both full and partial teardowns but either way I'll take the DQ and go home. I'll also take a DQ when I am asked to put my tractor on a dyno that is being operated by a cousin of the three legged dog owned by the clubs president. Unless that dyno is certified and operated by a certified person, my tractor isn't being hooked to anything but the trailer. Do I have anything to hide? Heck NO Then why not agree to the dyno test? Because I have seen first hand stuff get broken (luckily it wasn't by iron). I have personally had my tractor stalled twice by idiots who think it is funny to throw the pressure to the tractor so it will bark. They didn't think it was funny as I shared my opinion of how stupid they were for taking a chance in breaking something.

Hey I understand that the rules are in place to make it fair as possible for all participants. But the last time I looked at the pay out sheet, I hoped that I could recover the hook fees and the hot dogs that I bought.

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Puller

10-22-2001 20:23:01

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to burns, 10-22-2001 19:32:49

No wonder you guys get so upset about the rules and officials, that dyno man would have got a first hand look at the best hook I could deliver. Hey if your prize money pays for the hot dogs too I might have to venture over to Pa. next summer to get in on them big pay outs.

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burns

10-22-2001 20:36:25

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Puller, 10-22-2001 20:23:01

You are always welcome but remember there is a $1.00 service charge for chili, mustard, onions on week days plus additional 5% on days of a full moon, except if ol' George's horse is standing by the gate then the dogs are free.

Sorry I have been on the phone most of the night with the phone company trying to get some BASIC information.

Just remember that YOU ARE RIGHT THEY ARE WRONG!!!

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Troy

10-22-2001 10:26:13

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Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Jerry B, 10-22-2001 06:15:24

So if it looks stock but has 100hp it's stock. But it a guy picks up a tractor that used to be on steel but was cut down and welded onto a air tire rim it's modified? I don't get it. And if that isn't considered modified why is it illegal to lighten a tractor by removing the cast rear centers?

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Jerry B

10-22-2001 11:44:38

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Re: Re: Re: I hate more rules but........ in reply to Troy, 10-22-2001 10:26:13

Was it availible from the factory with rubber tires? yes=stock, no=modified or antique or whatever. You sill have people show up with "documentation" but if the area of question is not allowed by the rules then it is illegal.

Our club has rules that state tires size, hitch specification, weight locations, ect. If the tractor falls outside of these specs then it is not allowed to pull for points or trophy, just exhibition. Or they can pull in a class that allows such modifications.

We have atiques classes as well as farm stock. Farm stock means the correct engine, tires, hitch, bore and stroke. The farm stocks can compete with the antiques, the open classes and the outlaw classes (if they think they have a gnats chance in a hailstorm) but the antiques can not compete in the farm stock classes.

If you want to base classes on hp rather than weight alone then you will have to invest in a dyno to check each tractor prior to or following each pull.

It is all based on what the rules say and your club needs to get together and decide on the old, new or different rules. Make it almost madatory for members to be at the meeting in order to get their opinions heard and differences settled. If they don't want to attend then fine, just change the rules and tell them of the changes. Once voted on, then the rules become law until the meeting to plan the next season. I bet they will be there at that next meeting.

Be careful because some will get mad and quit, others will try to "enterpret" the rules to suit themselves. Make the rules as simple and straight forward as you can.

imho

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