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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Did I Hear You Correctly?

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Buzzman72

03-20-2004 04:21:56




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I've been following some of the discussing/trash talking going on here, and someone has said multiple times that there's no way that a smaller cubic inch motor will produce enough power to compete with a large motor. Funny thing, that's exactly what was said in NASCAR in the '70's, when the Ford "shotgun" motors and the Mopar "Hemi" were disallowed in favor of a 355 cu. in. limit. Here's a history lesson for you: the smaller engines are now putting out MORE horsepower than the big-blocks were THEN.

It's all a matter of how your particular combination is set up. Big cubic inches, for the most part, don't NEED to be quite as efficient to beat smaller motors; but smaller motors, with thr right combination of components and tuning and machine work, CAN beat a less efficient motor of larger cubic inches, and can do it over and over.

Whether it's pulling, NASCAR, drag racing, or any other form of motorsports competition...I call it my "gorilla" theory of engine building. That is, ANY gorilla with less-than-average intelligence can build a BIG engine (that is, send it out to have it bored, and add a stroker crank) and win; but you have to be "smarter than the average bear" to take FEWER cubic inches and win consistently.

And I know your arguments about weight placement, traction, tires, etc...the NASCAR folks and the drag racers ALSO have to deal with that stuff, and they seem to manage, too.

I don't have nearly the respect for the "gorillas" as I do for the "bears"...and I think that's only right.

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joe

03-20-2004 13:42:48




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 Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Buzzman72, 03-20-2004 04:21:56  
everyone knows that motors are alot of the time about who's got the most $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!



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ronjohn

03-20-2004 09:41:27




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 Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Buzzman72, 03-20-2004 04:21:56  
in drag racing, the cars with the bigger engines and the little extras always go faster than the smaller ones, just my 2 stupid senses



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Flogger

03-20-2004 05:22:23




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 Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Buzzman72, 03-20-2004 04:21:56  
Yep the 355 nascar motors are making more power today than the Hemis and Boss 9s were in the 70s, but they have a lot better cyl head technolgy, and they're also twisting them about 9 grand compared to 6000-6500 back then. Appy some of that modern technology to a big inch engine and it'll still make a lot more power than the smaller one.



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Redman

03-20-2004 06:35:18




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 Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Flogger, 03-20-2004 05:22:23  
how about the places where you can still run big block or small block?the use of nascar is a bunch of bull because they don't run big blocks,move to say mud drags they still run small blocks there right beside big blocks.how do you explain this?



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TimC

03-20-2004 11:44:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Redman, 03-20-2004 06:35:18  
Also the BGN guys used to run v6 against v8s.



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Flogger

03-20-2004 07:04:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Redman, 03-20-2004 06:35:18  
With all things being equal, in other words breathing, camshaft, carb, and timing being optimized, the bigger engine will make more power.



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Wild Horses

03-22-2004 10:32:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Flogger, 03-20-2004 07:04:32  
I think you just made his point. Everything isn't equal. The guy who puts $$ into a stroke and poke may get beat by the poor boy who spends his winter with a demel tool working the head for his M&W kit wonder.



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Redman

03-21-2004 10:54:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Flogger, 03-20-2004 07:04:32  
with all things being equal you are already restricting the smaller engine,a smaller engine needs its rpms to produce power so if you limit it to what a big engine will turn it is no longer a fair compare.



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Jeff

03-20-2004 09:38:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Flogger, 03-20-2004 07:04:32  
Not ot start a fight or anything but if that is true how come a Oliver 88 with 235 ci will make more hp on the drawbar and belt that an A or even a G? G's run what? close to or over 400ci? Accordingly they should at least make almost twice as much Hp but they don't. hahah of course with ALL things being equal I would have to lop off 4 cylinders on my 88! LOL!!!!! Those "Other Green" ones to make massive amounts of torque though! I love to hear them get down and lug and just keep going and going.

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Flogger

03-21-2004 13:51:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Jeff, 03-20-2004 09:38:26  
Hey Jeff,

I understand what you're saying about HP and CID numbers on OL 88 vs JD G. The way I figure it the Oliver just makes a lot more effiecnt use of it's inches than the Deere. The Oliver has a cylinder firing every 60 degrees compared to every 180 for the Deere. I'm sure the differences in compression and rpm factor in too.



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Wild Horses

03-22-2004 10:34:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Flogger, 03-21-2004 13:51:53  
Who ever said a G has to fire in 180 deg increments? Come down here and I'll show you different.



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Flogger

03-22-2004 11:14:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correct in reply to Wild Horses, 03-22-2004 10:34:38  
Well one revoulution is 360 degrees. There are two cylinders. One fires every half turn. Isn't that 180?

I have heard of a Deere modified where both pistons are TDC at the same time, but I was referring to a stock G.



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G-MAN

03-20-2004 14:56:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Jeff, 03-20-2004 09:38:26  
A stock "G" is 412.5 cubes. Sounds like a bunch, but not when you consider the compression ratio is in the neighborhood of 4.2:1 and their rated speed is 975 rpm. Any six-cylinder with more than half the displacement running 1.5 or more times faster and with a couple more points of compression should make more power. And yes, it does take a bunch of torque to make what horsepower they do have at 975 rpm. There's nothing like the sound of a well-tuned "G" doing its thing. I HATED two-cylinders the first time I saw a "G" pull, and I was impressed. Seemed like it should have died at half track and he took it right out the gate. Slowly, but out the gate nonetheless.

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TREE TOPPER

03-22-2004 13:14:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to G-MAN, 03-20-2004 14:56:40  
In a four stroke engine a clyinder fires every 540 degrees, whether two clys, four clys, six or eight. Intake, compression, power, and exhaust. Power coming at 540 degrees. On the exhaust stroke the cly. is dead. Mr Flogger just didn't think it through. If it were a two stroke this would be true.



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Flogger

03-22-2004 18:36:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correct in reply to TREE TOPPER, 03-22-2004 13:14:51  
You're absolutely correct TREE TOPPER and I stand corrected.



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Buzzman72

03-20-2004 08:23:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Flogger, 03-20-2004 07:04:32  
I agree...but to the guys who can see no further than bore and stroke [gorillas], I STILL say..."beware of the bears!"



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Flogger

03-20-2004 08:47:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Buzzman72, 03-20-2004 08:23:17  
Lot more to tractor pulling than horsepower Buzz. I'm a little guy and I like watching us win too. The first place tractor don't necessarily always finish first.



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820puller

03-20-2004 05:28:11




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 Re: Re: Did I Hear You Correctly? in reply to Flogger, 03-20-2004 05:22:23  

hey flogger. you are right on man.



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