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Troy

12-16-2001 08:23:33




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We had a winter meeting and tried to pass a rule that you could not use aluminum rims, frames, or use home made front ends.This proceeded to open a can of worms with people crying that if we do this all the tractors using nonfactory pressed tin rims should also be illegal. Is there any WC's pulling in 2700# without using home made frontends or switching parts to aluminum. We just wanted to keep this class competitive for the Fords, A and B IH's, C, CA, B Allis's, and the M, H Johndeere's. What are your thoughts? Thanks

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Worried

12-17-2001 07:31:25




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 Re: Rules in reply to Troy, 12-16-2001 08:23:33  
This day and time it's all about money. Some people can take a tractor, keep their budget down and be consistent. For most, including myself, I can see the end of my pulling days. I not badmouthing people the are financially well off, but the sport itself has gotten out of hand. Our club president just went out the other day and paid 18,000 to 20,000 bucks for a 88 Oliver. That's all well and good, but not everybody can do that. Farm stock is not an option, because most take a uncompetetive tractor, (example: a tractor that would be a Div 3 machine) take the cut tires, hot coils, etc. off and there you have it - my original STOCK M farmall that can pull in the 6500 lb. class? Have owned many M's - none of mine were capable of that. You say check the tractor before it pulls? How? Tear the engine down? Then the rules: one place you can pull with a blue T-shirt on, the other you have to wear a gray one. I started pulling about 11 years ago, and I wish those days were still here. Sure was a whole lot more fun. The days where you would say John Doe had his weights and balance just right and won the class, instead of here comes Joe Blow on his G JD, with aftermarket block, head, carb, manifold, rods, radical cam, no telling what stroke, computer cut tires on aluminum rims. Does'nt matter if there is a Div IV or V most still get in the low gear classes where all the modification still trumps the little man.

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Gary

12-17-2001 07:46:29




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 Re: Re: Rules in reply to Worried, 12-17-2001 07:31:25  
If you really want to equalize the tractors put in a speed limit that most of the tractors can pull at,then HP becomes a moot point.Then you don't have to worry about engines,gear etc and don't have to spend all day enforcing rules instead of pulling.My opinion all weight classes would be split up by MPH class and no MPH class this way everyone has a class to pull in competitively.



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burns

12-17-2001 09:34:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to Gary, 12-17-2001 07:46:29  
How does your club establish the HP rule? There is club here in W. PA that the weight class is the base line for max HP. 3500# = 35 hp 4500# = 45, 5500# = 55 hp and so on.

The only problem is there are a couple tractors who came to the factory rated really close to those limits. Plus the bigger problem is the dyno check and we all know how that some times go.



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Gary

12-17-2001 12:41:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to burns, 12-17-2001 09:34:22  
I've never pulled where they checked horsepower,
and wouldn't want to,just seems like another headache to me.Not only that but you can scewer
dyno results.Another bad idea is checking RPM at the PTO,lots of machine shops make gears,if you want to level the playing field just put on a speed limit and elemenate alot of headaches and arguing.The real appeal antique pulling has for me is the different rules,different track conditions and different sleds make it a challenge.I enjoy 3.5 MPH pulls as well as the no
gear rule no RPM rule pulls and everything in between.I think alot of guys would be well
served useing their time figuring out how to make
their tractors pull rather than trying to figure
out how they can get the competition DQ'd.

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G Taylor

12-17-2001 07:49:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to Gary, 12-17-2001 07:46:29  
I have to agree Gary's plan is the simplist to enforce & reasonable to all. How about tires however? I'm not even going to risk any suggestions on tire size(s),tread wear/cutting etc.



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Gary

12-17-2001 07:54:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to G Taylor , 12-17-2001 07:49:13  
My own experience is that I have dropped to narrower tires on two of my tractors and both times it helped me pull better.



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Steve

12-21-2001 20:17:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to Gary, 12-17-2001 07:54:56  
Here in Oregon both clubs have 5 mph limits and no tire size limits, and duals are allowed. The tractors with duals don't necessarily do any better.

Steve



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Gary

12-17-2001 07:13:06




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 Re: Rules in reply to Troy, 12-16-2001 08:23:33  
The trouble with outlawing a certain tractor in a certain class is it never ends.In any class you
come up with there are going to be certains tractor[s] that are going to dominant that class,
so you always have the same problem.In the case of
the WC it was the first agile "new" style tractor
it was light with lots of HP for its size compared to other tractors of its day.The other reality of rules is that alot of tthe time they
aren't enforced evenly,so the more rules the greater chance for uneven enforcement."Stock" also
means "whatever I have done to my tractor but nothing else".

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bman

12-16-2001 16:02:35




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 Re: Rules in reply to Troy, 12-16-2001 08:23:33  
i used to pull a f-20 on steel.our rules were pull your tractor as it came from the factory. then guys started souping up their tractors and stock pullers just could'nt compete in the stock class with these hot tractors.i thougt that antique tractor pulling was just that, antique tractors, not aluminumrims,frames and homemade front ends. so i built a 190xt superstock dsl and pulled it. in that class we weigh em and pull em. maybe i don't understand the modern antique class. we need to keep pulling alive. it died out in the late 70's and early 80's around here. but it has come back.let's not kill our sport by fighting amongst ourselves just a few thoghts from an old puller

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RoyG

12-20-2001 15:34:56




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 Re: Re: Rules in reply to bman, 12-16-2001 16:02:35  
I'll drink to that



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MM U

12-16-2001 19:14:22




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 Re: Re: Rules in reply to bman, 12-16-2001 16:02:35  
Ever hear of putting a Horsepower limit on the "light classes"?? Specify what models cannot be in that "light class"! Don't put in rules to hurt your local pullers from the rest of the country's rules! If you do so, you'll be like a group south of us in Iowa called the Laplanders!



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Troy

12-17-2001 04:12:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to MM U, 12-16-2001 19:14:22  
The problem is that if we discriminate against the WC in this class people will want to bar other tractors from other classes. Such as the A JD in 3700# and the G and the 88 Oliver in 4500# the M IH also. The W-9 in 5500# the R JD in 6500# and so on. These tractors have been pulling for years in these classes and there has not been a problem.



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WHY

12-19-2001 19:23:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to Troy, 12-17-2001 04:12:00  
Why discriminate any? If you make weight, then there you go. Fair is fair!!!
JOhn



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more reality

12-16-2001 11:10:18




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 Re: Rules in reply to Troy, 12-16-2001 08:23:33  
Why is the people that are inovative have there hands tied by the ones without imagination.



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red dog

12-18-2001 15:36:14




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 Re: Re: Rules in reply to more reality, 12-16-2001 11:10:18  
Rules are like like regulations they are made to break,all motor sports from nascar on down are loaded with rules and part of the game is see how far you can go with out getting caught! Rules are part of the challenge.Been around some type of motor sports 40 years,you always have cry babies too!



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burns

12-16-2001 12:01:32




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 Re: Re: Rules in reply to more reality, 12-16-2001 11:10:18  
I don't think being innovative is being questioned. It's when some of the innovative pullers loose touch with reality that is being questioned.



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more reality

12-16-2001 20:50:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to burns, 12-16-2001 12:01:32  
When ever innovation and imagination become real they have met reality. Where the problem lies is the limited improvement that can be made to the Deares while the Alice and Uhlivers are unlimited by comparison. One must question why the Alice forebares, Rumley and Uhliver forebares, Hart Parr gave up the two cylinder in the Twenties while Deare hung on to it 'til the sixties. Burns wants to riding on one into the next century.

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Todd

12-17-2001 09:08:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to more reality, 12-16-2001 20:50:09  
You don't seem to understand what people are saying. Pretty soon people will have soild aluminum tractors. Lightening a tractor with recast aluminum parts sold is not innovation. Dosen't seem to prove anything to me if someone puts a G JD in a 4500lb. or a oliver 88 in a 3500 lb. class. Seems kind of humiliating putting a big tractor down with little tractors. If these tractors are so bad, they ought to be able to run those high gears around their normal weights. I've seen people take off 1500-2000 lbs. of weight, then turn around and put it back ON? They still had plenty of room to play with their weights to balance properly. I tend to agree with the gentleman above, the most innovation these days is a fat wallet. And here we go with the Deere bashing again. Yes Deeres may be limited to cylinder numbers, but the point you bring up is that other manufacturers increased the number of cylinders while JD stayed with two. In those days tractors were built to serve one purpose. You know what that is. Who knew one day they would be cut up and used for pulling sport. It kind of makes them the underdog, and they do pretty darn good for what they are, and you know that too. Deere was able to use the two cylinder design, match power for power in in the 20's, 30's, 40's, and 50's. Sure they increased the cylinder number in the 60's, but the early idea was to produce a solid durable, cost efficient tractor to build, use, repair, etc. They did that, and was one of, if not the most popular tractors of their time. Like I said, they are limited compared to four, six cylinder engines, but remember you know as well as I do, they did their job as well as any other for PROPER use. I'll be right there with Burns riding on mine into the next century. Has nothing to do with innovation, just tired of Deere and Burns bashing. I don't care to be made fun of because I pull JD's - what if someone made fun of your wife or mother all the time? You would fire back too.

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Gary

12-17-2001 13:05:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to Todd, 12-17-2001 09:08:29  
If you and burns are going to be around for the turn of the century then let me know your secret since it 99 years away.



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Todd

12-17-2001 13:08:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to Gary, 12-17-2001 13:05:12  
I guess I deserved that one.



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SteveV

12-19-2001 16:23:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to Todd, 12-17-2001 13:08:21  
Au contraire (that's french)...us Deere people have the secret for eternal youth. There's nothing better than to hear the ol' girl hunker down and bark on a cool spring evening.



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Jack

12-17-2001 12:21:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to Todd, 12-17-2001 09:08:29  
Well said Todd and I DEFINETLY second that.I hope my son has a barn full of two cylinder John Deeres come the turn of the century.I am not married to none of em but someones preference is thier own right.And I have talked to Burns personally and I have never figured out why someone would attack just about every comment he posts.I have to commend Burns for not losing his temper over some of these bashing posts and I hope he continues to visit this site as often as he wants.Lets enjoy the sport and get all we can from it's experiences.Have a nice day.

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Burns

12-16-2001 21:03:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to more reality, 12-16-2001 20:50:09  
My comments have nothing to do with my preference of brand or how many cylinders. The orginal post references folks stripping their tractors down well below their shipping weight. I do have a problem with folks stripping their tractors down almost 50% of their shipping weight and trying to pull their tractors in Div I and II classes. If you want to pull the higher divison classes, more power to you. You take Mike Tomac's farmall M weighing in at around 3300#. My hat is off to Mike for his innovation. Should a JD G pull in the 4000# division I or II class. NO

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John B.

12-17-2001 20:52:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to Burns, 12-16-2001 21:03:08  
I don't think any tractor should be allowed to pull below it's shipping weight(div. 1&2 )Along with this rule should be a rim & tire size plus a 3mph. limit.We use this in NE. Ind. & it works well.High hp. doesn't help much if you can't run with the sled.We pulled at the Dekalb super pull in Columbus Oh. last year with our IHM in the 5500 class. There were 76 tractors in the class& we finished at the top of the class. Our M isn't considered a high hp. tractor at around 60hp. We ran 13.6-38 tires on a 12" rims. with a 18" drawbar. There were a lot of tractors with more hp. but they just spun them out.

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art

12-22-2001 18:57:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules in reply to John B., 12-17-2001 20:52:58  
Well said! The speed limit is an equalizer where hp is no longer the answer. Div 3 and its equivalent in USAP are great classes with lots of competion from all the colors. aRt



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