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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

An Alcoholic pulling tractor??

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ChadS

06-25-2004 09:34:41




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We all have heard the horror stories about the no see burning flames from alcohol, (Methanol) But why is it considered to be illegal?? Now, I am one for supporting an alcohol class in antique pulling, sure safety is at most importance, guideline would have to be met, and inspected, and enforced. Over the last few years, you have seen it open up in the ATPA, It is a wave that has swept over everywhere!! My question is,, why not in antique pulling? I am not talking about brush pulling,, I am talking about on a National level. Is it because there is no knowledge on this type of fuel,, how to set up safety guidelines?? I mean come on, they will chase you down in the pits just because you have a M carb on a H, or some crazy stuff like that,, if they can recognize that, then why not be able to set up rules and guidelines for this?? Think of how div 4 and 5 would change, if they let you run alky,, in my opinion,, less engine blowing up due to over cubic inching the engines, it takes less to make more with alky, those who have used it, know what I am talking about. IS IT DANGEROUS, OR IS IT SUPERSTITION, (Spellin) that keeps it out?? Not trying to argue about what is better out there,, just that there may be a door to open for those who have antiques, on alky. Lets hear some feed back! Please! Could it be done??? ChadS

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bud barenie

06-27-2004 04:52:05




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 Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-25-2004 09:34:41  
i think i have both a pulling and sleeping disorder!! i'm going to bed at 8:30pm and waking up at 3:00 am ! i'm working on a tractor in almost the middle of the season and working my @ss off in the dead of winter !!
soooo. i stick my head in an engine block for one day, turn on ytmag and bang. !! DO we have more new rules, is some bodddy sheating again, or did i miss someone get beat ugly at the last pull !!! are ya all going to start dipping tanks now !! shucks, your going to half to set up a tune day before each pull to make sure everyone is legal!! here i'm going by the 2003 rule book and now it's 2004 !!! what a difference a year makes!!! last year 200-215 was a good percentage pull, went to westville, and now it's 156-178 is a good pull. what happened, did every body detune their motors this past winter !! next year it'll be 125-160percentage !! heck will hook up to the boat and pray to make it to the first pilon !!! how's the hook numbers so far this year ! we have 2 divisions modified-farm stock. i agree with dc where the fun go !!!! same guy gonna win two classes every year !!! ouch!! rules are made to be broken !!! (i don't think so !! in my world it's black and white!
rpm's if a club member is a 100 over load up go home ! in farm stock, if their running exotic gas. load up send'em home !!! hitch is an inch to high. get out !!! inforce the rules to the letter of the law ! you cheat, club takes money,
load tractor come back next pull !! no arguing, no fighting . get the @@@@ out !!!!!
ok am i wrong here !!!
we need one more rule !!! (non-enforcable)
bad attitude (load up get out)
this is trully a great clud and an awesome sport !!
can't wait for the morning when i can just load up, put a smile on my face !! and go eat dirt !!!
boy it tastes good between the teeth !!
sorry for the long post !
bud b

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ChadS

06-27-2004 08:04:35




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 Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to bud barenie, 06-27-2004 04:52:05  
You need to get some more sleep Bud!! LOL I doubt anyone in the club will dip the tanks, Yep you are right, percentage has drammaticly dropped. No, they did not detune their tractors, they tuned the sled in to their tractors. Think about it, if the tractors distance on the sled, weight of the tractor, does not change percentage, there is one other mathmatical figure to look at. the weight of the box. Here is a good example, along the lines of what you described,,, ever see them do a pull off??? they add weight to the sled, tractor full pulls again, percentage drops, due to the added weight to the sled. well, they added weight to the box, (and it was a big huge secret to the other members in the club!!!) and whoa and behold, you now have to be at 5000 to get to the first pylon, and you would darn near have to full pull it to get over 200 percent. here was the original formula to figure the percentage,,

83X distance pulled, + 3260 Divided by tractor weight= percentage pulled. Now look at the formula, probably twice the number of formula figures just to figure it. WHY????? ??? the excuse was OH it is the new sled monitoring equipment. BS!!!!! That box still goes up the rails, and a distance is taken, look at it now, you look at the distance figure from the sled, it is not in inches, I dont know what the measurement is read!! but they have to divide, multiply, add, and subtract just to get a darn distance off the sled!! Now, what would possess, them to change the perctanage formula, a formula that has worked so well for over 10 years,, has to be changed. why would you want to make it difficult??? You seen the formula I gave you,, tell you what,, you figure percentage with the old formula, and test it against the new one, and I guarentee that the new percentage is lower. Now I know,,,, I know ,, fair for everyone, right?? wrong.. I know why, to hide the factor that changes it all, the weight of the box. When ol Funkhouser ran the percentage, he always told us what the sled weighs,, used to be 21000 lbs empty. Now, if that sled aint up to 30000, empty now, I will kiss your A$$, and give you a month to draw a crowd!!! Did not tell a soul, except for the ones who did it. Is this fair for all??? Not in my book. First clue, that they added even more to it, was that they wanted to eliminate the classes under 4000lbs. Why?? they knew that with the added weight, a 4000 lb and under tractor wont pull it, so the thinking is,, why have to watch the little guys spin out 20 ft into their pull, so eliminate it!! Well, There is no way I will let that happen! So they kept the classes. To humor us,,, right??? Now they sit there and snicker at ya,, they cant pull the sled!!! And that, is a slap to a light pullers in this club. You know what?? Anyone can weight up to 5000, to 7000lbs, if you want to throw that many weights, more power to ya,, but what aboutthe light guys?? the ones who worked for over 10 years, to make thier lightweights pull like a big one. We got the shaft!! Do you think that does not force you to move up in weight classes,, it does, it is either that or get laughed back on the trailer. Bragging rights indeed. Making rules for themselves,, setting sleds up for the high rollers in the club, and then cuss you cause you complain, is that supposed to be fun??? I am a lightweight, lost in a heavyweight world. and they aint looking back either. So, what do I do??? Wait till next year Bud,, may have to be 5500 to move it up to the first cone, and spin out. Hey, here is another clue that they added weight to the box,, they are not adding all those weights to the sled like they used to,, for the heavy classes,, just shift gears, and maybe 1 or 2 sets of weights,, instead of 9 or 10 sets. HUH?? HUH?? What about that????? Now me, aint one bit sorry for a long post, I hope someone takes copies of it, and sends it to all of em!! This is my opinion, from experience with that particular club, sled, and persons who run the show. ChadS

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bud barenie

06-28-2004 03:02:44




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 Re: Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-27-2004 08:04:35  
i can't wait to ask about the formula. first person i'll call will be mr stonecipher.
as for the lightweight tractors, i feel very much that the club should accomodate them as fairly as the 6500-7000lb classes. late last year i didn't feel that way !!! i can't believe they would change the formulation for percentage!
wa the formula printed in this years schedule!
i did better today, i'm at work at 4:45 (lol)

allready planning on sandblasting the g in a couple of months. not afraid of engine work anymore !!!
m-motor is as far as i can go this weekend! made great progress !!! used permatex ultra-slick when i installed the cam!! put on a bunch (big-bunch) this morning it looks like the motor is bleeding !!! i think it's telling me something!!
rrrra---rrra-rrrrraaa bang!!!
appreaciate all the conversation as allways!!
hope budd will let me do a little work at the track tis weekend!!! see yaaa all soon

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ChadS

06-28-2004 08:31:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to bud barenie, 06-28-2004 03:02:44  
Just ask Jon!! he would show ya,, but after he shows ya the formula, ya may get drafted to help him!!! LOL Nuthin wrong with that at all. Bleedin huh?? Yeah that stuff is messy, but ya gotta use it!! Hope to see ya get it going soon!! ChadS



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Augie

06-25-2004 21:50:20




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 Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-25-2004 09:34:41  
Methanol is a great fuel. Has less BTU per pound than gasoline, but makes great power when delivered properly.

It doesn't build as much heat in an engine as does gasoline. Would be great for hogged-out bores filled with hard block or epoxy.

There's a perception that methanol is dangerous due to the fact that it burns clear, but it's actually a much safer fuel than gasoline. Methanol is harder to ignite than gasoline and is a whole lot easier to extinguish if it does get loose.

I don't really see how it would reduce engine troubles in DivIV/V though. Guys who have the bucks to poke em and stroke em are still gonna do it.

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buickanddeere

06-25-2004 21:47:44




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 Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-25-2004 09:34:41  
If alcohol is allowed it's easier for some joker to slip a little nitromethane into the mix. Otherwise it's good fuel and safe IF everyone is trained on the differences.



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stroker

06-25-2004 18:10:15




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 Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-25-2004 09:34:41  
chad you just opened another can of worms. not tomention expossing people that like to comment on things they know nothing about. i feel the alky is as safe or safer than gasoline. i've ran it straight and mixed it really works nice and makes power. there is an additive that makes the flames visable, we had to run it in the early 80's at some of the tracks. top oil or a little gasoline will also give it color. lets get an open fuel class out there. we aren't allowed nitro in the karts anymore,lets use it in the tractors. yee haw!

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ChadS

06-26-2004 09:08:13




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 Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to stroker, 06-25-2004 18:10:15  
Cant say I never used Nitro in my fuel, know of many who do,, keep blowin the radiators clean out of em, cant keep em cool!! Always used Klotz in the alky, and you can see it burn with that stuff. Would be nice to have an open fuel class, but where does one draw the line though,, Would not have a bit of problem with fuel,, Nitrous and such,, might be a bit more difficult to make rules for, and to govern safety with it. I think the specific gravity rule should be thrown out, If they did, then, you would see an alky class possibly. Chad

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264ss

06-25-2004 16:33:18




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 Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-25-2004 09:34:41  
one time we had an alcoholic pullin a tractor...didn't seem to have any advantage...actually he had a disadvantage....couldn't keep it on the track;)



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BUDD

06-25-2004 15:28:05




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 Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-25-2004 09:34:41  
Chad;

Think about this. You will not gain anything if you think about it. If you pull against me and beat me with alcohol then I will go to alcohol so I can be completive, so now we are right back where we were except we spent more money. You say that they will not need to build the motors as big to get the same HP. Well we WILL still build them as big and as bad as we can just to get that extra little bit. So what have you gained? Not a thing on the competition, but you have spent more money.

BUDD )";"(

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ChadS

06-26-2004 09:33:59




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 Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to BUDD, 06-25-2004 15:28:05  
I would gain a heck of a lot!! Smoother torque curve, imagine, you do a bit of motor work, then run alky,, would have even more. Our club barred alky, we kicked their butts with it, so they took it away. ran it for 3 years, till we started winning!! Kinda like the posi trac rule the invoked. I will tell ya, and every one who reads this, I ran posi tracs in my tractors, rules changed, had to remove em!! Back to normal, that is OK too, Since they took something from us, why cant I take something from them,,, Like those digital speedometers. all the elders of the club run. Did not say jack to anyone, they just showed up when they changed the sled monitor. To me, that is just as bad as breakin rules too, the sled is supposed to determine, and alert you if you go too fast, not a item that was never offered as an option on a tractor of those years, it gets complicated, why? It aint in the parts manual!! Stock or mods, the club spent almost 1800 bucks to utilize the sled montior, and measuring devices, and then, these speedometers show up. And, the ones who have it, have the sled in their possesion, and a track to test n tune them in!! Been doing some thinkin bout this club, and its rules, they need to be rewritten, and persons capable to enforce them, as far as being fair, and open minded, not what the mafia rules on. I belive that some of the rules were directed in our direction as a slap. Now u did not do it,, nor will I blame,, I know who,, LOL So Does tom n wayne. I must admit, never said a word till I got the rules last year, barly enough time to take them out, In fact, last year, I finished putting it back together the morning of the first pull cause of all the secretcy, they love to practice. Heck, I am a reasonable man, just come up and ask, My opinion is not biased against the club, Been around long enough to see it all in NCIATPA. My opinion is for the pullers of this club, and that is what I hear when talkin to others in the pits. CHANGE is GOOD!! ChadS

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puller

06-25-2004 13:21:38




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 Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-25-2004 09:34:41  
Hey Chad, I don't know about in your neck of the woods, but around here you cannot even find a fire extinguisher, much less someone who knows how to fight an alcohol fire at a pull, It is the poor soul who comes to your aid in the event of an accident, who will not see the flames, and get burnt. Later, Greg



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ChadS

06-25-2004 13:45:55




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 Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to puller, 06-25-2004 13:21:38  
That is why I mentioned this for a national circuit, In my opinion, the larger circuits have the resources to find persons to to be educated in this field. If you have not messed with alky, it is not usually for a begginer puller. Does someone who drag races for the first time, convert the family station wagon to alky, just to run at the track? No. Someone who has had experience with it, been around it will. Let me also ask this,, is the tech crew you all elected, capable, of recongnizing a safe, or dangerous fuel system? Do they even look at that? Could they learn how to make guidelines for alcohol? Show enough interest, they might. Just my opinion. Chad

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PULLING FAN

06-27-2004 15:28:11




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 Re: Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-25-2004 13:45:55  
LETS TAKE A NATIONAL PULL CIRCUIT LIKE U.S.A.P. AND ALLOW ALCOHOLIC,SO WE CAN GO 8MPH, MAKES ALOT OF SENSE.



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Donnie

06-25-2004 15:47:07




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 Re: Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-25-2004 13:45:55  
I pulled Garden Tractors on alochol for years and never seen a fire one time. We ran them things up around 10,000 rpms. Can't imagine a antiquer getting that kind of rpm's. If you getting the timing right, and quality fuel lines, I don't see much danger in it. Trust me timing is the be key to keep them from back firing. Just my 2 cents. Donnie



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Blue Mlue

06-25-2004 10:33:12




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 Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-25-2004 09:34:41  
Het Chad are you planning on building one let me know where you are going to hook it .



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ChadS

06-25-2004 13:48:37




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 Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to Blue Mlue, 06-25-2004 10:33:12  
Yep. I built the carb last week, have not put it on to convert it. It is a 6 cyl. Chad



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AC

06-25-2004 14:44:08




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 Re: Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to ChadS, 06-25-2004 13:48:37  
Uh oh, a 6 cyl huh?....lookout world!...lol....no, to all who have never had experience with alky, hear this: I have been involved in sprint car racing and dirt late model racing for 6 years. They both take methonal to make them run. I have never seen an accident happen concerning fuel. But remember this, it takes WATER to extinguish an alcohol fire. Wiuth that said, let me get back. Chad has a great point with engine longevity. Alcohol burns much cooler than gasoline, and with so many highly modified tractors out there running hardblock, it definately helps keep from overheating and stress on engine parts. Further more, it is a good power maker, and is cheaper to purchase. As far as invisible flames, well, the ones I have seen are bluish tinted, and are caused (or seen) because of the amount of alcohol that must be pumped into a motor. When you dump out of the throttle, it has to go somewhere. Now I could be wrong here, but alcohol is not as easily ignited as gasoline. My two bits, and feel free to correct me, as this is just from hands on experience. I think it would be a great addition to pulling, as a 2nd fuel. Plus it makes for more competition!..... AC

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ChadS

06-26-2004 09:02:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to AC, 06-25-2004 14:44:08  
AC, u comin down next week, or next week? Chad



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Ironman

06-25-2004 15:35:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to AC, 06-25-2004 14:44:08  
Alcohol is such an exact science that most people would never see the benefit of it. If you can get it EXACTLY right, there are some gains. But it is so hard to get it dialed in that most people will make more power burning gas.



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Redman

06-25-2004 19:39:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: An Alcoholic pulling tractor?? in reply to Ironman, 06-25-2004 15:35:28  
i disagree,no days you put a onboard computer on it and that does the work for you.
notice the alky supers don't fart and spit down the track anymore,if they do the computer is off.



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