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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

560 puller

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T-Rex

06-29-2004 13:38:06




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I need some input on a 560 puller. I pull local fairs in northern MN. I pull 6000-8500 and spin out within 5-10 of the winners. I put all of my weight on the rear with no no front tire lift. I have 14.9-38's Firestone 151's with a nice road whipped tread, pulling at 20" of heigth at the end of the drawbar. Tractor produces 107 hp at 2300 rpm. Have tried many different gear combos with no difference. Thank you in advance. Chad

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Wayne

07-02-2004 22:49:34




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 Re: 560 puller in reply to T-Rex, 06-29-2004 13:38:06  

Long cable---Long Hitch. Short cable---short hitch Short story



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doug

06-30-2004 09:07:48




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 Re: 560 puller in reply to T-Rex, 06-29-2004 13:38:06  
What other tractors are you pulling against? are you getting beat by inches or feet? I'm assuming the class is a 10% over stock rpms? what is everyone else running for tires and what type of track are you pulling on? Tires and pressure
are a huge factor, assuming everyone has legal
(same) hitch height. If your running very low tire pressure to gain traction your losing it on hitch height and the bars will actually roll under the tire wasting hp and traction

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A.P.

06-29-2004 18:45:29




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 Re: 560 puller in reply to T-Rex, 06-29-2004 13:38:06  
What are you pulling on; sand or marbles? How long is the chain on the sled? At 8500 with not weight on the front end you should be able to see the Hubble telescope off the end of your hood.

Either your drawbar is way too short or your tires aren't biting. Going to a larger tire should help if your rules allow it. Make sure the front edge of the lug is actually biting. I have seen some road worn tires that do not have a good biting wear pattern. How is your tire pressure? Are you piling up a lot of dirt in front of the sled?

Are you hanging the weights behind the rear axle, on the rear tires or on a belly bar? How far from the center of your rear axle to the hook point? How high is your drawbar? Are you as high as allowed?

You should be competitive. A local 560 is hard to beat from 6500 up to the 10,000 class. He has run 18.4x38 and currently has 18.4 x 34" rear.

Good luck.
A.P.

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TURBO560

06-29-2004 14:38:15




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 Re: 560 puller in reply to T-Rex, 06-29-2004 13:38:06  
LENGHTEN YOUR DRAWBAR 2" AT A TIME THIS WORKS



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Phil Munson

06-29-2004 15:45:01




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 Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to TURBO560, 06-29-2004 14:38:15  
Spinning out, with no front end lift, I would like to respectfully disagree. Lengthening the drawbar will give you less weight transfer and you will spin out earlier. I suggest that you shorten the drawbar, as the rules may allow, to get more weight transfer and a better chance of getting the front end to lighten up. The 560 is a good tractor to pull. Have fun! Go get 'em.



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264ss

06-29-2004 16:23:21




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 Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Phil Munson, 06-29-2004 15:45:01  
its more like a big lever....your back tire is the fulcrum so the longer the drawbar the more leverage advantage the sled would have so it puts more weight on the rear tire....science and experience have proved this to me atleast



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Phil Munson

06-29-2004 20:17:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to 264ss, 06-29-2004 16:23:21  
The drawbar is a lever and the rear wheels are the fulcrum, however the further away from the sled the fulcrum is less weight is transfered to the tractor. Have you ever seen a pull in which the big dogs are hitting all home runs; right out the end of the track? With no more weight to add to the sled, a fourteen foot chain is added on to the sled chain. All of a sudden the big dogs cannot get more than halfway down the track; and the drawbar has been lengthened 14 feet. The closer the sled is to the tractor the greater the weight transfer to the rear wheels; That is why the rule mandating the drawbar hook point is a MINIMUM of 18"s behind the axis of the rear axle. Shorter drawbar = greater weight transfer.

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720Deere

06-30-2004 04:14:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Phil Munson, 06-29-2004 20:17:34  
Apparently the laws of physics are different where you live Phil! Try lifting something with a 6 foot long bar and a fulcrum, but only have 2 foot of the bar past the fulcrum for you to push down on. You probably won't be able to move more than 10 lbs. Now try using 4 foot on your side of the fulcrum. WOW, you can now move more like 200 lbs! It is the same with the drawbar. The longer the drawbar, the more advantage the sled has pulling down on it to transfer weight onto your rear wheels. The advantage to a short drawbar is so you can run maximum weight on your rear end with little to no front weight. Also, if your front end is light enough to lift, the shorter radius of the short drawbar will maintain more mechanical advantage or lift on the front of the sled.

A longer chain decreases the angle at which the sled is pulling down on the tractor thus transfering less weight onto the rear wheels of the tractor. Big difference in the long chain verses long lever theories. Maybe try a Strayer University online physics course!

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Phil Munson

06-30-2004 06:30:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to 720Deere, 06-30-2004 04:14:43  
The laws of physics are the same everywhere; You may, perhaps, recite them; you obviously, by your own words, don't know them. Tractor pulling is about weight transfer; only part of which is emanating from the front of the tractor. A shorter hitch (drawbar) transfers more weight off the front of the sled pan, reducing the friction of draft from the pan and conveys more weight to the rear wheels of the tractor, (fulcrum). As stated by one rocket scientist; "the shorter radius of the short drawbar WILL MAINTAIN MORE MEHANICAL ADVANTAGE or lift on the front of the sled."

You are truly amazing. While I am doing physics again (not that I ever failed it) we might chat again; if you have any time; given the additional challenges and time constraints you face while you are enrolled in the reading comprehension course you so badly need.

Do you live in Eden? Phil

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Nuts

06-30-2004 17:07:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Phil Munson, 06-30-2004 06:30:38  
Somebody needs to clue Phil in a little bit about what actually happens when you hook your tractor to a device called a sled...He's wayyyy off base, he's saying everything backwards. Try flipping your physics book over Phil, it might help!



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Phil Munson

06-30-2004 19:37:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Nuts, 06-30-2004 17:07:36  
Thanks for your concern, Nuts. I have won more than enough pulling trophies and ribbons over the last forty years that you do not have to worry. Actually, I have demonstrated a more than sufficient understanding of what happens when a tracor is hooked. You might do well to learn a proper name; after you do a little refresher for yourself. BTW is nuts a nomenclature or an adjective? Have at it.

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720Deere

06-30-2004 08:40:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Phil Munson, 06-30-2004 06:30:38  
The shorter drawbar allows you to maintain more lift on the sled pan, but does not create more leverage to cause weight transfer on the tractor. It's all about balance and if your tractor is too heavy in the front end, it takes a longer drawbar to maximize the leverage needed to transfer all the weight to the rear wheels. If you have a tractor that is light in the front, the shorter drawbar will prevail as it won't take as much leverage to balance the tractor.

The only time that the longer drawbar will cause you to lose the lift on the sled is if by using the longer lever(the drawbar in this case) it causes your front end to lift. Once the front wheels move off the ground, you lose hitch height which in turn is causing the chain to pull forward more than lift on the sled.

I am not talking about moving weight around for a heavier or lighter front end. The object is to run as long a drawbar as possible without having to add weight for balance. The more weight that you add to the rear of the tractor, the shorter the drawbar must be to maintain balance. Obviously were not talking about a 3 foot long drawbar. It's more a measurement of inches. Too long and other factors come into play such as drawbar flex which causes hitch height loss.

Nobobdy will disagree that a shorter drawbar is more advantageous if it keeps you from adding front weight.

Somebody stated that a long drawbar and a long chain have the same effect. Maybe I'm mentally challenged, but I don't see it that way. Changing the length of the chain changes the angle at which the tractor lifts on the sled. Longer chain equals less lift. Whether you shorten or lengthen the drawbar has no effect on the angle of the chain or consequently the lift on the sled as long as the length of the drawbar does not change the hitch height.


I think we all see the same picture, we're just looking at it from different angles!

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Red Rider

06-29-2004 21:25:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Phil Munson, 06-29-2004 20:17:34  
Phil, there is a big difference to a 14 foot chain and a rigid drawbar.



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Phil Munson

06-30-2004 06:09:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Red Rider, 06-29-2004 21:25:51  
I realize that there is a difference between a chain and a drawbar. However my point was intended to be: the longer the hitch, the less weight transfered, the greater the friction of the sled pan, the harder the pull. A valid point whether by longer drawbar or longer chain.



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Shutt30

06-30-2004 10:02:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Phil Munson, 06-30-2004 06:09:48  
On the light tractors leghtening the drawbar works good for us. 2700-4500. But it seems that in the heavyer classes you want the drawbar as short as possible. I don't know why but it works. $.02



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Not exactly

06-30-2004 07:45:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Phil Munson, 06-30-2004 06:09:48  
The longer chain makes the tractor pull more forward on the pan and not as much up and forward. In a sense you are more dragging the pan than you are picking it up and carrying it as you do with the shorter chain.



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Einstein

06-30-2004 06:49:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Phil Munson, 06-30-2004 06:09:48  
We learned on the playground teeter totter that the best way to lift the kid on the other end was to scoot to the very end of the board. To get your front end up you need to lengthen your drawbar.

Albert



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MMark

06-30-2004 07:55:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Einstein, 06-30-2004 06:49:38  
I think both of you are right. Until the front end lifts off the ground the pivot (fulcrum) would be the front tires, imagine a old lever style nut cracker the closer you put the nut to the pivot the more force you have to crack the nut. So the longer drawbar would put more force on the tires. After the front end comes up a longer drawbar would be a disadvantge as it would require more front weight to maintain balance and the hitch height would lower more per angle of front lift reducing weight tranfer from the pan.

I hope I made sense,
Mark Damewood

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Ironman

06-30-2004 07:41:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Einstein, 06-30-2004 06:49:38  
I have wondered the same thing and just playing around I have tried it before and the longer the drawbar, the more weight it takes to hold the front end down.



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264ss

06-30-2004 08:48:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 560 puller in reply to Ironman, 06-30-2004 07:41:55  
i went from an farmall M drawbar 20in high(couldn't keep the frontend down), to one that comes off the pto at 18 in back(can't get the front end up)..... the longer chain makes the sled pull the drawbar back instead of down.....thats the diff between longer chain longer drawbar FB



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Flogger

06-29-2004 14:28:20




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 Re: 560 puller in reply to T-Rex, 06-29-2004 13:38:06  
How big of a tire will your rules let you run? With that kind of power you can spin 18.4 38s at 10,000 in low gear. I'd run the biggest tire and widest rim your class allows.



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ChadS

06-29-2004 13:57:07




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 Re: 560 puller in reply to T-Rex, 06-29-2004 13:38:06  
Are you allowed posi, limited slip differentials? Email me at ChadS3@hotmail.com for more info. Chad



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