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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

What's the crying about?

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Willy

07-29-2004 06:26:49

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What's the fuss about Indianhead Pullers? There's some tractors here that would wipe you clean, don't know why they would complain, maybe because
there's not enough competition?

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old joe dan

07-30-2004 15:43:37

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to Willy, 07-29-2004 06:26:49

Well I hate to tell you this but Detroit diesels do make boost. I have owned and rebuilt them from the I-6 238hp to 8V92TA 445hp, My non turbo's made about 22lb boost and my 8V92TA made about 32 lb boost, both at about 1900 RPM. The non turbo blowers are geared faster than the turbo blowers and the later turbo engines had a bypass valve between the turbo and blower that would open, because the turbo once up to speed will put out more boost than the blower.
I wish my JD 70 had a Detroit from the factory
AND THAT IS MY 10 CENTS WORTH
old joe Dan

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MARTY

07-30-2004 16:59:16

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to old joe dan, 07-30-2004 15:43:37

Sorry to burst your bubble JD boy, but how can a Detroit make boost when they have air vents for the air box? Maybee you didnt clean these out on all of your "rebuilds" but a clogged air vent is a good way to have a run away Detroit. Plus there is always a exhaust valve open. The only way to make a Detroit create boost would be to put a air tight wall in between each cylinder inside the air box-but this is hardly possible. All of my Genuine Detroit Diesel books call the non-turbo engines naturally aspirated- are you going to tell them they are wrong about thier own engines?? You must have had a really screwed up gauge when you where checking your airbox pressure-or maybee you plummed into the oil pressure! The turbo charged engines have different pistons and connectiong rods. Detriots measure air box pressure in inches of mercury-same way to measure blowby pressure in a typical 4 stoke engine-So i guess any engine that is running there blowby back into there intake charge (in Indian Heads wise thinking) are not naturally aspirated.Wish everyone would try to understand the way a Detroit works before they start their whinning-Just because its a differant way of doing it everone starts b*tching.

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old- joe- dan

07-31-2004 04:53:32

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Get your facts before you post. in reply to MARTY, 07-30-2004 16:59:16

Well Marty you should get your facts before you post.
The reason for the boost is the blower puts out many more cu.feet of air than all 4 exhaust valves per cyl. can let out and then the exhaust valves close before the piston completely seals off the inlet ports that are all the way around the middle of the cyl. for even more boost. like putting your finger over the end of a garden hose with the water running. Besides I love my 8 JD's and I love Detroit Diesels, that is why I wish JD put them in from the factory not so I could win at the pulls, BUT I WOULD IF JD DID if every thing is up to snuff Balance, tires, air pressure and etc. (but you need to know how to make a Detroit run). These facts are out of Detroit manual.
Proper air box pressure is required for sufficient air for COMBUSTION and SCAVENGING, Lack of power or black or gray smoke are indications of LOW air box pressure.
AIR BOX PRESSURE 1 in. mercury = .49 P.S.I N75 injectors = 31 in mercury that = 15.5 P.S.I
These facts are out of Detroit manual.
Hope this helps you understand how a Detroit Diesel works.
old joe dan

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MARTY

07-31-2004 07:36:40

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Re: Get your facts before you post. in reply to old- joe- dan, 07-31-2004 04:53:32

You are forgetting about all the other cylinders-if detroits where a one cylinder then your garden hose theory would be right-all the cylinders are all in the same air box so their cant be any boost made. You are also forgetting about the air box vents-or are these mabee new to you? With low air box pressure your exhaust will not get blown out of the cylinder completly and you will get darker smoke and loss off power-it is not from lack of compressed clean air. Dteroits are a great engine with just a differant way of doing things, I just wish that being a little differant wouldnt be held against them.They should be pulling in the naturally aspirated classes.Not much for arguing but just wanted to voice my opinion-have a good day

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North of 8 Rebel

07-29-2004 12:25:28

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to Willy, 07-29-2004 06:26:49

I am not going to argue that Indianhead has some tough darn tractors, the problem with the club though is the ridiculous way they run their rules! Basically, if you are not part of the good ole boys club, then don't even think about showing up and winning, they'll find a way to kick you out, even if you meet every rule they have! I am sure some Indianhead guys are going to read this, and as usual, they will just start making stupid comments, but, before you guys do, answer this question with a real knowledgable answer for me. Why cant Detroit powered Olivers pull in your club? They are a naturally aspirated engine, yes, technically they have a blower, but, the blower on a Detroit DOES NOT BUILD BOOST! Look in any service manual, iformational book, etc etc... on the face of the planet, they are a naturally aspirated motor. Why is it that not one of your tech inspectors, or whoever you have doing this stuff, can seem to figure that out. The only real reason a detroit cant pull is because Smarty Marty, Scotty, Billy, and the rest of you can't figure out what makes them go, so just boycott them instead!! Well, lets hear it, I don't want a bunch of BS, I want to hear a sound legitimate arguement why they're outlawed?

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Julie

08-07-2004 15:43:38

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Get Your Facts Straight in reply to North of 8 Rebel, 07-29-2004 12:25:28

A knowledgeble answer for you. Just wanted to clairify your comment about Detroit powered Olivers not allowed to pull with Indianhead. They ARE allowed to pull with Indianhead. We have 10500# and 12000# Farm Stock classes to pull in. 9000# or lower they are not allowed. When you look at our membership base for the past, at least, 12 years we have NEVER had a farm stock member, that I can remember, with a Detroit powered Oliver. So I guess if it was so important to pull with Indianhead maybe they should have become an ACTIVE member. I usually don't answer to your ridiculous posts because anyone who posts on here and hides who they are all of the time doesn't receive or deserve much respect from people who work hard to keep the sport of tractor pulling strong. Notice this my correct name and my email is included.

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Neil

07-29-2004 19:50:31

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to North of 8 Rebel, 07-29-2004 12:25:28

I don't know the details exactly and I'll believe you that they don't build boost from the factory.

It does seem to me that they could be made to stuff more air into the cylinders, though.

If they do not build boost, the reason is that the exhaust valve is open the entire time (or nearly the entire time) that the intake port is exposed. The result is that any extra air you push with the blower will just get pushed out the exhaust valve.

If, however, you were to close the exhaust valve earlier and while the intake port is still exposed, you could stuff some extra air in there.

It would surely take some work to figure out how soon you could close the exhuast valve and still get all of the exhaust scavenged. But with some effort I'm thinking you could stuff a heck of a lot more air in than naturally aspirated by overdriving the blower and closing the exhaust valves earlier.

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In the book

07-29-2004 14:59:20

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to North of 8 Rebel, 07-29-2004 12:25:28

Personaly I do not have a problem with detriot's. If you look in Diesel Engine and Fuel System Repair 3rd edition by John F Dagel, page 196 states that naturally asperated- uses no air pump of any type, and relies solely on the difference in pressure between the engine cylinder and ATMOSPHERIC pressure. Roots type blower system- is used to FORCE air into the cylinder and exhaust gasses out. A supercharger (gear drven blower) forces air in under slight pressure. I don't know what the board of directors have for or against them but none of the names mentioned above are tech inspectors or on the board, so go back and work on your 2cyl's and bad binder so that the little 180 doesn't kick all your hyperpoop parts around anymore

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North of 8 Rebel

07-30-2004 09:11:16

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Sorry pal! in reply to In the book, 07-29-2004 14:59:20

Sorry buddy, you're barking up the wrong tree here, I'm not them!

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Doesn't build boost?

07-29-2004 12:42:12

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to North of 8 Rebel, 07-29-2004 12:25:28

If it doesn't build boost than why do you call it a blower? What does a blower do? IT FORCES IN AIR INTO THE CYLINDER. Naturally aspirated MEANS THE ENGINE DRAWS IN AIR ON ITS OWN. So knowing this why would you call a Detroit naturally aspirated?
Because you possibly dont know any better?!!
You better ask someone that knows about Detroit
diesels.

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Redman

07-29-2004 14:53:21

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to Doesn't build boost?, 07-29-2004 12:42:12

the detroit will not run without a blower for 2 reasons.
1.they are a 2 stroke so they cannot draw enough air on their own to run at slow speed to ignite the diesel.
2.the blower is also part of their governor system.
a 6-71 roots blower on a BB chevy @ 70% overdrive will make abot 10 psi at 5000 rpm,the detroits are 1 to 1 and at full throttle don't make enough boost to matter.
i have yet to see one that will run with the IHs and cockshutts in this area,sounds almost like the ta rule they have here.

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JDBert

07-29-2004 14:22:45

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to Doesn't build boost?, 07-29-2004 12:42:12

I've built my fair share of detroits and without the blower they dont run. The blower is their source of natural air. On a detroit the air enters through the sleeves through a series of "Slots" or holes into the cylinder. I see no problem with detroit powered units pulling. As long as it was factory (JD 435's super 99 ollies, ect.) And to anyone who knows what to listen for, its very easy to tell one thats been twisted up (usually they run way more RPM's then they should be)

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David

07-29-2004 13:49:56

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to Doesn't build boost?, 07-29-2004 12:42:12

Boy, your showing your ignorance. On a two cycle diesel the "blower" blows out the exhaust, not pressurizing the intake. Go to the library and get "An Idiots Guide to Diesel Engines" and get a clue!

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Get a clue!

07-29-2004 14:58:36

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to David, 07-29-2004 13:49:56

Now who is showing there ignorance! Blowing out the exhaust? You better get a clue! Go to the library and figure it out! Ive herd it all now!
Ha Ha. And by the way Detroits are a two stroke they require force feeding of air to run. But this force feeding is still a blower with positive pressure. So they are NOT naturally asperated.

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G-MAN

07-30-2004 10:50:29

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to Get a clue!, 07-29-2004 14:58:36

Absolutely a Detroit "blows out the exhaust". The blower is there to scavenge the cylinders, not produce intake boost. During the brief instant that the cylinder ports are uncovered, the exhaust valve is open, allowing the air coming in the bottom of the cylinder to force the exhaust out the top of the cylinder through the exhaust valve. A non-turboed (yes, there are Detroits with turbos in addition to the scavenging blower), the blower doesn't produce but maybe 1 psi of boost at the maximum. It's not acting as a supercharger. It's acting as a scavenging blower, necessary to engine operation.

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Redman

07-29-2004 14:48:08

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to David, 07-29-2004 13:49:56

how does it do that when it is hooked to the intake?

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Ironman

07-29-2004 15:59:37

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to Redman, 07-29-2004 14:48:08

The supercharger, blower, whatever you want to call it blows out the exhaust with fresh air coming in through the holes in the sleeves. The air that pushes out the exhaust is the same air that is compressed when the piston comes up. If not for a blower of some sort this motor won't run period. Follow the link below for a picture and more in-depth explanation.

Link

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Redman

07-29-2004 18:27:07

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to Ironman, 07-29-2004 15:59:37

me thinks your logic is a little screwy,after the air is compressed in the combustion chamber it is exhaust.

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Ironman

07-29-2004 19:55:35

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to Redman, 07-29-2004 18:27:07

Correct, then fresh air pushes it out and that fresh air is compressed and becomes exhaust and it repeats. Sorry if it wasn't clear or sounded like something else.

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ONE wheel wounder?

07-29-2004 20:29:30

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to Ironman, 07-29-2004 19:55:35

I don't know what the real topic is here? What I have to say is the Indian Head pulls are not my favorite ones to pull at there is rules I don't like, the P.A. man at the pulls seems to have memory problems (repull length changed from 75FT to 100FT),the way the pulling order is done for each weight class. Who was operating the scale? I could go on & on. Itis A strugle to say I had fun last fri.

My 2cents:> kevin

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Redman

07-29-2004 20:06:40

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Re: What's the crying about? in reply to Ironman, 07-29-2004 19:55:35

your theory has some iron to it,but the reason a detroit need a blower is the intake ports are low on the chamber so it can not draw enough air to run on its own.
the blower as far as a forced air system works well on gas or alcohol engines,but does not have the volume or the boost to really make a diesel run.

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North of 8 Rebel

07-30-2004 08:39:38

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Hope you Indianhead guys are paying attention? in reply to Redman, 07-29-2004 20:06:40

Pay attention boys, maybe you'll learn something! If you guys do have such tough tractors, why don't you let the Most Boys pull hobby stock, hmmm,,,,?

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Redman

08-01-2004 16:26:40

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Re: Hope you Indianhead guys are paying attention? in reply to North of 8 Rebel, 07-30-2004 08:39:38

pay attention yourself,if your tractor is so tough bring it on up here to MN and give mine a try.
i think i'm a little over and above of what you want to tangle with though.
i don't pull antique,and this is the main reason i can't take all the back stabbing and crying.
if a tractor can make weight and has factory equipment it should be able to pull.

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