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A rods in a G

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Ken C.

08-24-2004 20:13:05

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If you put A rods in a G to offset grind the crank, the rist pins are the same size in diameter, but the top of the rod where the pin goes through is not as wide as a G, that makes the distance from the rod to the piston a little wider, about 400 thousands total on each side, will this make any difference and cause any problems, also does it matter which way the rods go in, any help is appreciated, Ken.

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mike N Mo

08-25-2004 05:47:03

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to Ken C., 08-24-2004 20:13:05

The extra side play a the piston shouldn"t be a problem. You should take the rods in with the crank so the crankpin can be ground to the correct width for the A rod. Mike

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JDGnut

08-25-2004 07:25:58

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to mike N Mo, 08-25-2004 05:47:03

No problems on either end of the rod using the A rod... The A rod is 3.00 on the crank end.. (3.375 on the G rod) There is a little more play (left and right) in the A rod on the crank end because it is a little narrower but you will not have a problem. (and can gain .375 stroke depending on the condition of your crank.. if it has a bad journal, they can grind it with a little less stroke.) The 4020 or 404-466 7.6-8.1L (and others) are also 3.00 at the crank end.. but they are narrower than the G or A rod.. I have never used one of these rods with out having the crank welded to match the rod. (always had the crank stroked.) The 329-359 rod is 2.75 and is even narrower than the 4020 rods.. As stated below.. they are welded to another rod that fits the piston pin to get the correct length. (that's the tricky part.) Usually used with a shorter/lighter piston..
Good Luck
JDGnut

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Ironman

08-25-2004 05:50:47

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to mike N Mo, 08-25-2004 05:47:03

Shouldn't be a problem. Most people don't stroke far enough with A rods for it to be because they run out of clearance up top after about 8.75".

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buickanddeere

08-24-2004 21:01:02

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to Ken C., 08-24-2004 20:13:05

I was under the impression that 4020 or the smaller journal 329 rod was a bolt in after offset grinding down the crank? I"m rounding up parts for my 70LP and thought it may as well be stroked a little when we are at it.

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ToddF

08-25-2004 07:49:47

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to buickanddeere, 08-24-2004 21:01:02

I used the welded rods Mike refers to in my 70, I think they were donor rods out of a 4010, maybe they are the same as a 4020. Instead of A rods for the top end I used a used aircraft rod; they are cheaper, quite plentiful and they look good too!(That is, until you weld the 4020 rod onto it.) Depending on how much stroke there is, the 4020 rods may still require some grinding to clear the cam shaft and the top of the crankcase even with the rod bolts at 45 deg. I am guessing that a stock 4020 rod is too short to fit in a 70 even with no stroking.

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Mike N Mo

08-25-2004 05:56:48

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to buickanddeere, 08-24-2004 21:01:02

If you mean putting in the 4020 rod or the 329 rod in a 2 cylinder without modification, no. The big end of the 404(4020) or 329 rod is welded to the A or G rod after it"s big end has been cut off and discarded. The advantage is the extra clearance provided at the camshaft due to he rod cap being at a 45* angle instead of straight. If you"re not stroking real big this isn"t a big clearance problem. Mike

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buickanddeere

08-25-2004 07:46:15

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to Mike N Mo, 08-25-2004 05:56:48

Do you know the piston pin diameters of the 70 vs the 329 and 4020 rod? I'm not keen on welded rods and would rather bore the piston, make a custom piston pin or something? I may just have to grind a little from the back of the crankcase for the rod's rib on the cap without going through into the transmission. And call it enough. Roughly how far is that? The tractor came with a fresh set of stock 90 over LP pistons in the pile of loose parts. Maybe into notching a little for plug clearance?

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ToddF

08-25-2004 09:09:51

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to buickanddeere, 08-25-2004 07:46:15

If I remember right from when I was looking into doing mine, you can actually go to about 8.25" of stroke before you have to go through the back wall. This will still require a custom rod of sorts, whether its welded or custom manufactured.

I don't know if an A rod would work possibly with an offset grind on the crank and clearancing on the piston skirt to miss the crank? It may still be too short to work. If I recall the 70 crank pin is 3-3/8" and the A is 3", this would give you a net gain of 3/16" of stroke.

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JDGnut

08-25-2004 08:07:49

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to buickanddeere, 08-25-2004 07:46:15

I posted the journal sizes above.. the 70 rods is basically a G rod... you can offset grind the crank and use the A rods.. (same as a 60 rod) and increase the notch on the piston for the plug.. You will not have to grind on the case or the cam... I have not done this with the 70 or the LP pistons.. and it has been too long to remember since I had the head off a 70.. but I there should be a lots of room at the top even with LP pistons.. (but take a look when the head is off (if it has those pistons in it with the stock crank.. start measureing..) The 329-329 rods are about 7in.. (that's not exact.. just off the top of my head.) but way too short to use in the two cylinders with out welding.
JDGnut

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JDGnut

08-25-2004 08:48:53

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to JDGnut, 08-25-2004 08:07:49

The pin diameters for the 5.9L Deere engine.. (the metric version of the 359)
Three different pin sizes..
small 1.2596-98
med. 1.3748-52
large 1.6248

The 2.75 journal is not used much in the deere engines, as they were known to break in the 329-359.. at higher HP's.. If you are going to offset grind it too 2.75.. I would use a Case 504 rod.. is it wider.. and will work better.. but if stroking (by welding on the crank.) I like th extra support of the narrower Deere rod... JDGnut

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buickanddeere

08-25-2004 13:39:04

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to JDGnut, 08-25-2004 08:48:53

Looks like welding up those rusty rod journals and taking the stroke out to 8.0 or 8.25" with the stock rods and LP pistons will be the way to go. A power block for the 70LP would be nice. They should go cheaper than the power blocks used on G's? These LP pistons and block could always go in the other 70 gas someday. Can't recall which is which, the 7-1 and the 7-2?

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JDGnut

08-25-2004 21:29:03

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to buickanddeere, 08-25-2004 13:39:04

There will be lots of grinding at 8.25 with the A rods... and even more with the G rod... The top of the crank case, and a lot will have to be ground off the cam... and a little on the back of the crank case... I don't know about the stock 70 pistons.. with that much added travel... the plug is going to be very close or into the first ring grove.. and the piston is going to be very close at the top of the block... The 7-2 PB is for the 70's.. but hard to find.. and you will have to have custom pistons made or cut and weld the rods shorter.. JDGnut

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JDGnut

08-25-2004 21:37:13

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to JDGnut, 08-25-2004 21:29:03

About your wheels on your 70... you can find hubs that will fit that axle with no mods... M&W 9 bolt hubs.. or dual hubs to fit... I"m about 99% sure you need the hubs for a 4010.. the 4020 had a bigger axle.. There are other hubs that will work.. might check some of the bigger Olivers or Minnes.. I believe that my 70 gas is under 6500 easy.. No PS, live PTO.. but it still has the 13.6's.. with the cast centers... the tractor is wore out stock...
JDGnut

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buickanddeere

08-26-2004 05:09:04

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to JDGnut, 08-25-2004 21:37:13

Looks like less stroke than I hoped for the 70LP with the stock rods. Roughly how much stroke with stock 70 rods before whacking/grinding clearance on the cam or cutting through the crankcase back wall? The 70G rollo-matic makes the 6500 lb class with fenders, no PS, 15.5x38 six ply Firestones and live pto. Sometimes have to skip a meal and drain 1/2 the gasoline however. I'm assuming the otherwise identical 70LP will weight more and need to loose weight to squeeze into the 6500 lb class? I'll have to measure some axles and scrounge the salvage yards for hubs.

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JDGnut

08-26-2004 06:44:38

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to buickanddeere, 08-26-2004 05:09:04

Axle diameter is 3.125..

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JDGnut

08-26-2004 06:42:35

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to buickanddeere, 08-26-2004 05:09:04

No since in not using the A/60 rods... 99% of the strokers out there have the 3in journals or smaller... (a few have gone bigger if they are using the recasted block, because of the added weight from the pistons.. but not many) I don't know how far you can go with out grinding... Especially using the G rods... (never tried it.) I'm guessing here... but maybe 1/2 with the G/70 rod and 5/8 with the A/60 rod.. but I think that might... My suggestion would be to buy a cam that was already notched.. (that is the hardest to do.) and just knotch the top of the crankcase. and use the A rod... but you'll have to check the piston height... JDGnut

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buickanddeere

08-26-2004 09:00:42

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to JDGnut, 08-26-2004 06:42:35

Looks like time to get in there and do a bunch of measuring. May have to settle for less than 8.00 inches. At least it will save getting into the top piston ring land to clear the spark plug. How thick is the casting between the crankcase and the transmission? I was hoping to stroke some for more compression. And to make up for milling some of the eyebrow from around the intake valve. Cutting the head a little should add a some comp too.

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JDGnut

08-26-2004 13:40:39

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to buickanddeere, 08-26-2004 09:00:42

I don't think it will be much more to go for bigger stroke... (cost on the crank.) At 8 in will have to grind the top a little and the cam.. you can go a little more and still use the A rods.. (as far as the crankcase/came goes..) no idea on the pistons... If you go to a welded rod... and .250 over (6.125) bore.. let me know... I'll pass on some info on aircraft pistons what work good for that bore.. (Also good on the A PB's)
JDGnut

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Mike Aylward

08-26-2004 11:54:41

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to buickanddeere, 08-26-2004 09:00:42

Glen, I am building my 70 right now. Holler if I can be of assistance. Mike

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buickanddeere

08-26-2004 17:09:29

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to Mike Aylward, 08-26-2004 11:54:41

Thanks Mike and GDnut. The project got delayed again as the &^&&**^& dog one day instead of just watching the neighbours cattle. Decided to try a cattle drive from the front field next our place. The dog thinks it"s his territory not the neighbours. Cattle had never been driven by a dog before and paniced. The next several paychecks are going into vet bills and replacement cow/calf. The kids just busted the new digital camcorder/camera fighting over it. Next thing to replace,sigh. Wife doesn"t understand why I"m bit cranky recently. JDnut I"ll have to measure the distance from the top ring/spark plug after a test assembly. And calculate possible stroking distances there vs. cam clearance/max stroke. Mike has you got any farther with the 7/8 ground speed on the gasser 70 with the 70D 1st reduction gears?

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Mike Aylward

08-27-2004 14:00:15

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to buickanddeere, 08-26-2004 17:09:29

Glen, I unhid my email address. You can contact me directly. Mike

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buickanddeere

08-29-2004 21:04:06

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Re: A rods in a G in reply to Mike Aylward, 08-27-2004 14:00:15

Mike.

Got hit by lighting Friday morning. Will e-mail you when I get Outlook Express working on another computer.

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