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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Engine Advice

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Red Power

09-07-2004 15:38:28




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I am building a modified tractor and I just wondered what you guys would suggest as far as what motor to put in it. I have access to about any type, but I just wondered whether to put a small block for the RPMs or a big block for horsepower. Thanks




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G-MAN

09-07-2004 15:50:01




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to Red Power, 09-07-2004 15:38:28  
The line between the big-blocks and small-blocks is starting to get severely blurred. There are guys building small-block Chevys out to 454+ cubic inches, and something like a 400 small-block is already darn near as big as a 402 big-block when dealing with Chevys. Of course, not many guys build 396s/402s when for the same money you can build a 454, but you get the point. With the new cam grinds and heads, small-blocks are also regularly putting out horsepower numbers that were all but unheard of 10 years ago, at least in anything but all-out race blocks. Generally speaking, it's usually cheaper and easier to build a 500-horse big-block Chevy than a 500-horse small-block Chevy though. They have the inherent advantages of bigger bores, longer strokes and better flowing, non-siamesed-port heads out of the box. But, they're heavier. Your decision is probably going to rest on your budget, what horsepower level you want to achieve, and what you can find or already have for a core engine. Crate motors are also getting hugely possible, and the sky is the limit for what you can buy ready-to-run right out of the crate. In a lot of cases, you can buy the horsepower much cheaper than you can build it, especially when you consider machine work, needed accessories and so forth.

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Red Power

09-08-2004 12:02:24




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to G-MAN, 09-07-2004 15:50:01  
Hey G-Man, discounting money, ease and weight, would you suggest a small block or big block chevy. Would better performance come from a bored small block or big block?



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G-MAN

09-08-2004 14:02:58




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to Red Power, 09-08-2004 12:02:24  
Discounting all those factors? Big-block all the way in my book. There is MUCH more potential in a big-block Chevy than a small-block. 454 vs. 350. Bigger bore. Longer stroke. Bigger valves. Bigger ports. Canted valves with equally-spaced ports. All the stuff it takes to make more horsepower BEFORE you even start getting into the aftermarket goodies. And I think a complete 454 only weighs around a couple hundred lbs more than a complete 350. An aluminum intake, water pump and heads would have a big-block down to what an iron small-block would weigh. As far as ease of building or installation, that's pretty much a wash. In most cases, a big-block will fit anywhere a small-block will. You just need a little more length and width to fit it in. And if you're building the tractor, it's easy to plan for the bigger engine.

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ChadS

09-08-2004 14:11:33




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to G-MAN, 09-08-2004 14:02:58  
Gman, how bout a tall block? I got 3 427 tall block chevys, are those better than the auto block? Chad



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G-MAN

09-08-2004 16:06:09




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to ChadS, 09-08-2004 14:11:33  
The tall-decks were the redheaded stepchildren of the Chevy big-blocks for a long time. Now they're gaining popularity because you can put more stroke in one, and the aftermarket is making manifolds and so forth for them. In fact, GMPP's new Chevy 572 crate motor is a tall-deck engine, combined with some of the Gen VI block architecture. The ZZ572/620 is 9.6:1 and rated at 620 hp. The ZZ572/720 is 12.5:1 and rated at 720 hp. Hot Rod put one of the latter on race gas and tweaked it on the dyno and got well over 800 ponies out of it. I think some of the monster-displacement aftermarket blocks are also based on the tall-deck design.

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Shutt30

09-08-2004 19:00:42




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to G-MAN, 09-08-2004 16:06:09  
I agree about the 427 tall block. They make one hell of a blower motor for pocket change compared to other brands.



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G-MAN - hugely popular, t

09-07-2004 15:51:11




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to G-MAN, 09-07-2004 15:50:01  
bt



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ChadS

09-08-2004 09:24:57




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to G-MAN - hugely popular, t, 09-07-2004 15:51:11  
Always been a Chevy man too, What about the Ford power plants? How big can thr 351 windsor be taken out, or the 429-460? Maybe a Mopar 440 lots of brute power there too, Wonder what a 6 pack would do on a puller? ChadS



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G-MAN

09-08-2004 16:10:49




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to ChadS, 09-08-2004 09:24:57  
The Stang-bangers and other 5.0 freaks commonly stroke the 302 to 347 cubes. I don't know about the 351W, but I think I've read that a 460 can easily be taken to 512 without having to do any clearancing in the block. That's supposed to be a pretty common package for those now. Of course the most common stroker Chevy small-block is the 383, probably followed by the 377. The most common big-block stroker is the 454 with another 1/4 inch of stroke and taken to 489 or 496 cubes depending on whether it's bored .030 or .060. I've also read about Mopar 440s being stroked to that 490-cube range, probably with another 1/4 inch like the Rat motors. Stroking is all the rage right now. It only stands to reason. If you're going to build an old core engine into a serious street or strip motor, you're likely going to drop the coin on a forged crank, super-duper rods, forged pistons, premium rings, etc. With the stroker kit, you can get everything for one price, and some even come out of the box balanced with a new flexplate and balancer.

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ChadS

09-09-2004 08:23:39




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to G-MAN, 09-08-2004 16:10:49  
How about a V8 of a different nature, A diesil. Only thing I dont like about auto engines, is that the more rpms, the more power, right? And the harder you spin em, the less likely it would be to live for a long season, especially in a puller. Now aint knocking the gassers, just wonder aboutthe torque that the diesil can produce. ChadS



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G-MAN

09-09-2004 13:44:55




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to ChadS, 09-09-2004 08:23:39  
A gasser doesn't necessarily make more power the faster you spin it. Once the torque curve falls off to the point that additional RPM can't make up for the loss of torque, the horsepower will begin to fall off as well. I don't know about a diesel modified. Maybe something like a Cat 3208, but those things are darn heavy for their output. A GM 6.2 or 6.5 has the handicap of precombustion chambers and indirect injection. Same with a Navistar 6.9 or 7.3 prior to the DI and Powerjokes. I believe there are guys building Cummins "B"-series engines into the 1200-horsepower range, but that takes mega bucks, multi turbos, massive amounts of headwork, etc. Plus there would be wheel speed issues unless you had outrageously high gears and enough torque to spin the tires fast. If I were going to build a mega-horse Cummins "B", I'd put it in a 4wd pickup puller, not a cobbled together modified built out of old tractor parts.

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ChadS

09-10-2004 07:02:33




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to G-MAN, 09-09-2004 13:44:55  
They call them antique modified around here, and really, that is exactly what they mean,, LOL I agree about the 4x4, they have the diesil classes and I sure would love to drive one of those! 4x4 truck pulling, just jumped ahead into the future there I think,, The reason I said that about the rpm, is because that is how they run and seen alot of em blow cause of it. but this is crazy rpms too, 7500+!! My opinion,, as a torque pulling engine, the old 6.9 and 7.3 navistar. Granted, I know nothing about the navistar 7.3 on the inside, Does the 7.3 have more torque than the 454 lets say, at, 4500 rpm? Yep, the chevy dies off fast when it pulls down hard, hard to keep the torque going at that low,, but lets say that you did have an engine, that was capable, of running, 4500 rpms, max, and then be able to lug and put power on the ground in the low rpm ranges. lets say when you lug it, and it could run at 3000rpm and keep it alive. Hook it up and pull, instead of a speedster? ChadS

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G-MAN

09-10-2004 07:41:35




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to ChadS, 09-10-2004 07:02:33  
I don't think you'd want to run a stock 7.3 at 4500 rpm. I don't think even the modern diesel V-8s aren't turning that kind of speed, and with an older engine, you'd probably run into valve float issues, which is another advantage for the Cummins - a mechanical valve train with no hydraulic lifters. I also have severe doubts about the engine's ability to breathe at that speed. With enough time and money, I'm sure you could build a screaming 7.3, but there are better foundations to start with.

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Shutt30

09-08-2004 19:08:43




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to G-MAN, 09-08-2004 16:10:49  
Back when we pulled mods(late 80's and early 90's) there were some 600 plus cube Fords using deck plates between the heads and block. Now thats stroke. Once a fellow puller blew his 505 Mopar so bad it split the block in two. We pulled the cam out by one guy grabbing each head and pull out and lift the cam right out the top. I have also heard of much larger Mopars. A cheap Mopar is the 440 crank and rods in the 400 block. Gotta love positive deck height.

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Drew

09-08-2004 10:32:28




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to ChadS, 09-08-2004 09:24:57  
A 351 Windsor can be made into a 427 (4.060 x 4.125). I think a 460 can be built to 640 ci (not sure on bore x stroke) I"m a diehard Ford fan, but I would use a Chevy because parts are cheaper and I would trust a GM TH400 before a Ford C-4 (I dont think a C-6 will bolt to a small block...could be wrong though)



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Schutt30

09-08-2004 18:58:55




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to Drew, 09-08-2004 10:32:28  
The 351 Clevland came with the C-6 and has the small block bolt pattern.



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ChadS

09-08-2004 10:47:58




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to Drew, 09-08-2004 10:32:28  
I thought the C-6 was a one piece casting. I would not rule out a AOD tranny for the small blocks. Sure, the 5 speeds hold sometimes in the mustangs, but there are AOD trannys beefed up to hold it, but that is comparing racing, to pulling,, ChadS



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Drew

09-08-2004 11:05:53




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to ChadS, 09-08-2004 10:47:58  
I just looked it up and there is a small block bolt pattern C-6. I dont know what advantage there would be to an AOD because you dont need OD for pulling.



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ChadS

09-08-2004 12:05:46




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 Re: Engine Advice in reply to Drew, 09-08-2004 11:05:53  
Not technically,, but better than a C-4 in my opinion. yeah they had a C-6 small block tranny, find em in pickups. some big older cars too. Seen a small block 302 bust a C-6 bell housing clean off the engine once,,, twisted it right off. That sucked,,, ChadS



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