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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

4430 engine

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Bill Ross

09-29-2004 19:17:18




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What is the largest cubic inch engine that can be installed in a 4430 without modification. I would like to go bigger than a 466 if anything will fit.




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buickanddeere

09-30-2004 14:17:49




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to Bill Ross, 09-29-2004 19:17:18  
Check with G-Man but isn't there a new 9.0L coming out? In marine applications the HP is unreal making more than old factory 531 & 619's.



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JDGnut

09-30-2004 20:36:41




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to buickanddeere, 09-30-2004 14:17:49  
For info on the 9.0L check out the deere.com page and go to engines... I don't think that this will be quite what you are looking for... it is 24V.. but its a HPCR engine... (and a different HRCR than is used on the 8.1L) and you will not get the power out of it like the P pump with out some serious $$$$$ because there is nothing out like it now.. It will be a Teir III engine.. the aftermarket (pulling fuel shops) have got the parts to make the other engines perform.. (not saying the 9.0L won't get there... Time will only tell.. but I am guessing that we will probably see a bolt pattern change for the head... (if not than a conversion back to the old head would be possible.. but this is a new engine..) But the right person with the brains could do some work with the computer and programing... but it would take some work.. or the right person... (the Dodge/Cummins guys are just now getting to reprograming the 24V VP44 Cummins to get more HP.. and that engine hasn't been used in 2yrs.. (and I'm not talking about one of those plug in reprogramers) But I can tell you we had our 8.1L HPCR at 420hp.. and it was Teir II emmision Cert at that HP.. That engine has gobbs of potential...
Ok.. I"m rambling again... JDGnut

G-Man.. I'll have to look.. but I don't remember what the OEM engines have for oil pan bolts.. I do know you can get a tin pan or an AL pan....

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G-MAN

10-01-2004 04:50:09




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to JDGnut, 09-30-2004 20:36:41  
Now that I think about it, I worked on a 6081T power unit on an irrigation well a couple years ago, and I think it had the same pan bolt pattern as say a 6076. I hope somebody gets around to converting a 6090 to mechanical injection for a puller. I would think that the centrally located nozzle and four valves per hole would make for some outrageous potential.



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JDGnut

10-01-2004 07:22:12




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to G-MAN, 10-01-2004 04:50:09  
Potential.. Yes.. tons.. Also not sure how the rules are writen for the different classes.. some its run-what-U-brung.. but it will be trick to see it done.. I can't wait to get my hands on one.. haha.. that won't be for a while... I'm missing my usual trip up this year.. I think a modification in injectors, turbo.. and the right programer (person) the 8.1L HPCR could be in the 750Hp range.. The injectors would be the trick.. We know how sensitive they are to change.. hahaa.. If they can get over 800Hp out of the 5.9L Cummins, that should be a walk in the park for the 8.1L... JDGnut

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G-MAN

10-01-2004 07:48:56




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to JDGnut, 10-01-2004 07:22:12  
I'd like to see one "de-electronicked" and outfitted with a big greasy P7100, custom lines and modified to mount some sort of standard mechanical nozzle in the head. I don't know how the new heads will flow, but I'm assuming it will be pretty well. I would think 750 hp would be gravy once the bugs were worked out. And then stick it in a 4440...



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buickanddeere

10-01-2004 08:59:54




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to G-MAN, 10-01-2004 07:48:56  
There must be some high volume electronic injectors on the market for large industrial applications. As long as someone knows the numbers, rpm, injection event time, pulse width etc. It's not a huge task to write a program on a PLC. Then the govenor could even have PID control rather than just proportianal.High rpm run aways would be a thing of the past. Water injection could be brought online with variable flow to match load and monitor EGT to fine tune flow. Complete combustion also makes more HP. The 20,000 psi common rail would mist the fuel must better . Compared to a mechanical pump with 2000-3000 psi pushing against 1000+psi compression/combustion pressure. Higher flows over a shorter time span. And getting the entire fuel injection event done prior to or just at TDC would improve power dramaticaly compared to mechanical systems still spraying the bulk of the fuel after TDC. Same reason the 169% larger 13mm short duration spray pumps on two cylinders did better pumping the same amount of fuel than the 10mm long duration spray pumps.

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G-MAN

10-01-2004 15:17:28




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to buickanddeere, 10-01-2004 08:59:54  
The higher pressure would increase atomization, but I don't know if that's the best way to go. I don't know if it would apply to diesels, but I was reading an article about gas fuel injectors and super fine mists are usually achieved to meet emissions. Sometimes in gas burners more of a squirt is better for power than a fine mist, although you'd have to worry about blowtorching a piston in a diesel. I think it would be a tossup cost-wise between converting to mechanical and reprogramming an ECU. We've already had to download new software into 6081 ECUs through Deere, so that's not an issue, but I don't know how viable that would be on an aftermarket basis. The big advantage to electronics and HPCR is that you can keep the nozzle flowing fuel as long as you like, do multiple injections, etc.

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Lyndle Shelby

01-02-2005 16:57:11




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to G-MAN, 10-01-2004 15:17:28  
Was the 6081 ECU that you reprogrammed a common rail 6081 as in the 8020 series tractors? I have been scouring the net attempting to get a reprogrammer for the 8020 series. Where did you get the software download? Local dealer? DTAC?



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JDGnut

09-30-2004 20:35:23




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to buickanddeere, 09-30-2004 14:17:49  
For info on the 9.0L check out the deere.com page and go to engines... I don't think that this will be quite what you are looking for... it is 24V.. but its a HPCR engine... (and a different HRCR than is used on the 8.1L) and you will not get the power out of it like the P pump with out some serious $$$$$ because there is nothing out like it now.. It will be a Teir III engine.. the aftermarket (pulling fuel shops) have got the parts to make the other engines perform.. (not saying the 9.0L won't get there... Time will only tell.. but I am guessing that we will probably see a bolt pattern change for the head... (if not than a conversion back to the old head would be possible.. but this is a new engine..) But the right person with the brains could do some work with the computer and programing... but it would take some work.. or the right person... (the Dodge/Cummins guys are just now getting to reprograming the 24V VP44 Cummins to get more HP.. and that engine hasn't been used in 2yrs.. (and I'm not talking about one of those plug in reprogramers) But I can tell you we had our 8.1L HPCR at 420hp.. and it was Teir II emmision Cert at that HP.. That engine has gobbs of potential...
Ok.. I"m rambling again... JDGnut

G-Man.. I'll have to look.. but I don't remember what the OEM engines have for oil pan bolts.. I do know you can get a tin pan or an AL pan....

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Bill Ross

09-30-2004 06:39:21




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to Bill Ross, 09-29-2004 19:17:18  
Thanks gents. Feel free to email me if you have a line on parts or a contact that might help me get into a late 466 without to much damage to the wallet. I do have an extra complete running 404 (2700 hrs) with pump and turbo sitting in the garage to give me some donor items or trade.
Bill



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G-MAN

09-30-2004 04:59:37




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to Bill Ross, 09-29-2004 19:17:18  
I agree with JDGnut. The 466/7.6 or 8.1 would "bolt-in" to the tractor, although you'd have to tap the front frame-to-engine holes on a 8.1 as they are oil-pan-mounted in the 8000s. As he said, probably not worth the trouble and expense for the extra 30 cubes. As far as modifications, what's going to be involved is mostly going to be modifying the intake system and maybe the hood. Mechanically, everything will bolt up, such as the engine to the clutch housing, frame rails to engine, flywheel and clutch, etc. Definitely go after a late 6466 or 6076 with the good cylinder head.

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JDGnut

09-29-2004 21:49:05




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to Bill Ross, 09-29-2004 19:17:18  
The 8.1L will fit.. (496 cubes).. but there are a few differences.. the water pump is in a different location and will take a little work.. but it will be costly for the small cubes you will gain over the 466.. the late head on the 466 will work good... Then you always can start stroking and resleeving.. check out the adds on pulloff.com for other parts..
JDGnut



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JDGnut

09-30-2004 06:03:49




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to JDGnut, 09-29-2004 21:49:05  
I'm not sure if WTW will chime in here.. but he has done a few convertion of the 8.1L in to that style of tractor... JDGnut



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G-MAN

09-30-2004 16:25:26




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to JDGnut, 09-30-2004 06:03:49  
Probably just bolting on a Bosch P-pump, correct? How much heavier is an 8.1 block than a 7.6? I'd also be interested in hearing about mounting the oil pan. Can you just go in and drill the 3/8 holes in between the 1/2 holes used to mount one to an 8000 front frame?



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WTW

10-01-2004 07:03:36




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to G-MAN, 09-30-2004 16:25:26  
G-Man, If you use an 8.1 engine intended for anything else beside an 8000 series tractor the oil pan from any 404 or 466 will bolt directly to the 8.1 engine without doing anything with pan-bolt holes. So if you are going to build a puller and do not want to deal with these large pan bolt holes just get a power unit engine like from a combine and the oil pan is no concern. Been there and done it, also in a earlier post you mentioned something about tapping frame bolt holes. The holes on the side of the 8.1 blocks are tapped. They are deep into the block casting, all you need is a longer bolt to reach them. The bolt pattern on the side of an 8.1 is the same pattern as the old 404 and early 466 blocks meaning it is the original small pattern before it was enlarged like the 50 series tractor and newer 7.6 engines are. This pattern allows one to bolt a stock frame rail from any 30 or 40 series tractor directly to block without alteration of bolt holes. There is some thing that will give you some clearance issues but can be worked around. Just some things I have learned putting newer engines in older tractors, Dave W.

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G-MAN

10-01-2004 07:53:18




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to WTW, 10-01-2004 07:03:36  
I'm kind of surprised they didn't come up with a way to just machine the blocks the same and use both bolt patterns. But, it probably only requires punching a button on a control console to have the blocks come out the other end of the machining center with 8000 holes vs. the standard holes. I'd never looked at a combine motor to see what holes they had, but that makes sense. What tractors have you powered with 8.1s? I should have remembered that the holes were tapped deep, as I put a dozer blade on a 20-series a couple of years ago, and had to use the front holes. Some of the front tank brackets also use them. My mistake. Anywho, I'd like to hear more about this stuff. Drop me an email at deeremeyer@yahoo.com if you care to.

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WTW

10-01-2004 09:16:06




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to G-MAN, 10-01-2004 07:53:18  
Three years ago this winter I put a "new" 325 HP 8.1 power unit engine in a 4040 for some folks for pulling. The big clearance issues were in front of the engine due to fan center line and water outlet locations. We left the radiator in original location and put on an electric fan in front of radiator. Also original hydraulic pump was removed as we kept new (HUGE) engine front pulley / balancer. New engine had an AUX drive on left side which I used for a smaller gear type hydraulic pump on back side and another smaller pump on front side of AUX drive which I used a fuel charge pump. I removed the original steering valve unit and installed a 8000 series tractor steering unit and priority valve to steer tractor. The original 4040 closed center brake and diff lock valves were used only with a load sense line from them to the steering priority valve to supply oil to the original closed center brake and diff lock valve on demand. Had some pretty slick plumbing with load sense check valves, which was more challenging than putting the 8.1 engine in the tractor. All worked well. Sense this was done engine has been altered to over 600 cube.

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buickanddeere

10-01-2004 08:24:00




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to G-MAN, 10-01-2004 07:53:18  
That's what we seen and were told on the factory tour. Each engine came down the line and was custom machined to fit it's application. With engines, manifolds, turbo's etc for different machines. There looked like 1/2 a dozen different engines on the line at any given time. Some places they even ran the 12.5L down the same 8.1L line.



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G-MAN

10-01-2004 15:20:34




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to buickanddeere, 10-01-2004 08:24:00  
I haven't been to any of the plants yet, but my coworker JDoug has been to most of them and the Engine Works. Apparently those 6081 castings go into a big machine at one end and come out the other end a couple hundred feet later fully machined, holes tapped, etc. Doing the various pan rail machinings and drillings would be a pretty minor deal on that scale. There is something like 70 lbs of cast machined from the blocks during the process.

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49 MMU

09-29-2004 20:11:33




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to Bill Ross, 09-29-2004 19:17:18  
As far as I am aware you cannot go any bigger than a 466 block and it takes a lot of modification. My neighbor has a HOT 4430 w/ a 466 block and I dont' know what else. It has a quad range and I believe he pulls D 3 and 4. Not certain but pretty sure. Leave your e-mail and number and I'll get it too him. He knows what has to be done to swap in the motor.



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thejdman01

09-30-2004 12:11:50




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to 49 MMU, 09-29-2004 20:11:33  
if you put a 4430 in a stock class you cant technically swap out engines plus would be helpful to know what class your going into. if your willing to do work put a 619 in it should bolt up to clutch housing and if you dont get stupid with it it shoudl hold the power.



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thejdman01

09-30-2004 14:46:49




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to thejdman01, 09-30-2004 12:11:50  
my mistake thats right it was a 4840 i saw with it in it



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WTW

10-01-2004 08:29:12




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to thejdman01, 09-30-2004 14:46:49  
A 4840 has the same clutch housing to engine bolt pattern as a 4430. So if you seen a 619 in a 4840 either the engine, clutch housing or both had to be altered to make it bolt up. They will not bolt together with there original factory patterns. DW



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tim5

09-30-2004 13:30:35




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 Re: 4430 engine in reply to thejdman01, 09-30-2004 12:11:50  
619 will not bolt up to a 4430 clutch housing



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