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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts?

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Steve Crum

10-02-2004 07:12:56




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Hi Guys,
I would like to hear your opinions and experiences concerning this type of stack. These are typically 3" diameter at the bottom flaring to 6" diameter at the top and about 24" nominal heigth. In my learnings over the years, This design doesn't make a lot of sense on a normally aspirated engine for reasons that would take alot of space here. I have to admit they do add a nasty intimidation factor to the looks of some machines, But is there a performance advantage that I have missed along the way?

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LW

10-02-2004 14:19:47




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to Steve Crum, 10-02-2004 07:12:56  
Basiclly they keep the pressure the same all the way out as you get farther away from the engine the exhaust cools and requires more area, This is in theory and has a little signifigance but they exagerate it to look more impressive.



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buickanddeere

10-02-2004 14:26:14




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to LW, 10-02-2004 14:19:47  
Cooler air at the same pressure occupies a smaller area than hot air. The taper should be from larger to smaller. The main advatage(?) of the funnel stack is that it's louder. And the extra dia/area helps keep the engine cleaner by gathering more rain water.



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Steve Crum

10-02-2004 18:39:14




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to buickanddeere, 10-02-2004 14:26:14  
Sorry LW, It would appear that some crap splattered on you. Most folks take posts in these forums with some degree of seriouness. Unless it's obvious that they are jabbing fun at somebody!



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LW

10-03-2004 05:38:01




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to Steve Crum, 10-02-2004 18:39:14  
Well I can tell you one thing I keep from be a smart--- lots of times when reading about magical springs for gov. that make big hp, there serious! Then about all the other crap on here, but you actually asked if there was a performance advantage to a chrome pipe that is called a "megaphone" in the first place does'nt the name say it all, couldn't get that much from it huh! I suppose when I am done I can say "bless you heart" and it will make it ok or I can post "HAHAHA LOL" then that would make it ok , I will post when I desire to stupid questions or good ones , buickanddeere has argued with me about facts before where I know he was wrong it was about something I do every day he still thought he was right but I don't even want to prove to him or anybody else that I know what I am doing , I'll just keep on building tractors kick - but and put big gaps between me and the competition and you guys keep wishing for a magic spring or pipe or air filter, or blah blah blah. PS... lol

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Steve Crum

10-03-2004 09:14:52




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to LW, 10-03-2004 05:38:01  
LW,
My business is not to argue with you or anyone, I'm about as easy to get along with as they come.
As far as "Magic horsepower makers" I agree there are 1000 magics to 1 that does make a difference. After all Mag wheels add 25 Horses to anything they are put on right? yeh right! Working with airflow control for 20 years in the spray drying business and 10 years in this business, I've learned as have many others that to build anything performance then cheap out on exhaust system design is foolish at best. Especially true with the normally aspirated two cylinder tractors.
Exhaust dynamics is a balancing act of pressures, volumes, velocities, temperature and enviromental factors, and equipment/component designs. All these factors play a roll in the true "magic" number of volumetric efficency, Without considering this factor one can put tens of thousands of dollars in to any engine and come up with a very expensive boat anchor. On the other hand, the one who takes the time to understand how to maximize volumetric efficency of a given engine by concentrating on such things as carburators, camshaft timing, lift and overlap,
exhaust manifold design and finally exhaust system design is usually the one dealing with traction issues, or if he hooks up good, blasting over the 300' line. Thus the funnel stack doesn't make sense in my learnings, but like I said from the get-go, maybe there is something I missed.
I've been told many perceptions on these over the years, probably the one that makes most sense is their ablility to collect rain water more efficently than say a 3"or4" stack. The most compelling percept was from a customer who works in the R&D lab at a major equipment manufacturer who stated that they were able to eek 5 more dyno horsepower out of a 500 horse twin turbo diesel, using a funnel shape stack but then the results were not always consistant. I'm guessing that from what I've gathered here and other places, a polished stainless funnel stack might well look nasty on a pulling tractor but will likely have an undesired effect on volumetric efficency from the maintained velocity stand point. That I wouldn't recommend these as a performance "enhancer"

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LW

10-03-2004 11:47:41




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to Steve Crum, 10-03-2004 09:14:52  
If I had thought anyone would have taken that post seriously I never would have put it up here, The only gain I have occured on a dyno with exhaust is length/diameter there seems to be an advantage if it is balanced I have taken header that had 1 7/8 prim. into a 5" pipe(4cyl) cut it back with a reducer and into a 3.5" pipe and it made a world of difference, but every "engine combination" needs to be tuned/trial error/dynoed to find its potential.

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ChadS

10-03-2004 07:37:03




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to LW, 10-03-2004 05:38:01  
LW, In a sence, magic, or not, they do the job. Amazing what a few little springs can do. You know that!! I am not so sure a different design of exhaust pipe will help much on HP, a fully tuned system,, maybe,, but not just a pipe. I have always tried to keep the exhaust as free flowing as I can, always have. Been told by many, that you can open up the exhaust as much as possible as long as you dont open up the intakes too large. My opinion would be relitive to engine compression. Like I said, dont see too much of a gain from any pipe, when you have low compression, there is not alot of air comming out of the pipe as far as pressure is concerned, ultra high compression say, 250+psi, you may have enough exhaust pressure to play around with the flow and get something out of it,, If you wantto spend all the time, and risk being burned on it. I think I would get burned on it,,,, lol. Still got that wild AC? ChadS

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LW

10-02-2004 18:04:59




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to buickanddeere, 10-02-2004 14:26:14  
This is great you can post an obvious bunch of crap and one of you guys will jump on it in a minute, did you even take time to laugh or just go straight to typing!



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770 Puller

10-03-2004 18:56:22




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to LW, 10-02-2004 18:04:59  
LW, Chad S> I use a 3 step electric motor
unit for my pulling tractors. The 1st motor, near the bottom turns 3600 rpm, Second motor near the middle turns 7200 rpm,s. The last motor near the top turns the opposite direction to push back unused fuel. This is the best system that I found that works, it is the electric cyclone system. When useing this system please note, that the plastic blades will not last long, but makes a nice blue flame. I will post a drawing of this flame blowing system if needed! This system can cause burning on exposed skin and please remember to wear saftey glasses for seeing the end of the track. I had to post this!

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LW

10-04-2004 05:37:57




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to 770 Puller, 10-03-2004 18:56:22  
But I can appreciate a post like that,you got a patent yet?



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buickanddeere

10-04-2004 09:34:05




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to LW, 10-04-2004 05:37:57  
In all seriousness the idea of the "cone" is to form an expansion chamber with a low pressure area inside. This is to increase the delta P across the areas between the combustion chamber and atmosphere. Easy to say in theory but tough to find and tune in real life. Tends to be peaky at a narrow rpm/load level. Where the expansion chamber idea works best is in the transition between primary header tubes into the common collector of larger dia. Then trim the length of the collector to tune. The cone tip when excessive in design, just for show and extra "megaphone" noise. It takes alot of high energy in the form of heat, volume/amount of gasses and velocity to make a "cone" work. There is more HP in careful port cleanup in the head, matching manifolds to ports, three angle valve jobs and valve re-shaping. Most of the impressize HP gains are in the intake system. Particularly a couple of inches before the valve, through to the combustion chamber.

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Paul winter

10-02-2004 07:31:21




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 Re: Cyclone or Funnel type stacks, Your thoughts? in reply to Steve Crum, 10-02-2004 07:12:56  
will they help ? maybe, as you heat air it will either expand or increase pressure if run through an upside down funnel velocity may increase, starting a scavenge effect pulling more air out of engine.will it increase power on a dyno? maybe i am sure that it has for someone at one point of another.Paul



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