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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Coil too hot for points?

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family traditio

08-09-2005 19:12:40




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Is this possible? I have a 30000 volt coil w/ stock points. I had a pertronix ignitor and was having some firing trouble, I replaced it w/ the points but left the hot coil, at first it ran good, but now I am getting a popping from the exhaust when coming back down to an idle. The points do not look burnt. Could this effect the condenser? Please help!




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Chuck S.

08-10-2005 18:24:09




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to family tradition, 08-09-2005 19:12:40  
Check with your parts people find out if your coil needs an out side restor,also try another condensor.



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Glen in TX

08-10-2005 09:35:01




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to family tradition, 08-09-2005 19:12:40  
I too think it is a different type of coil. Stock points and condenser won't handle it. Remember the dual point distributors the racers used? That's why they went that way before electronic dist. and magnetos. If the points are just pitting or cratering on one side you can change to a higher capacity of microfarads condenser but the single set of points may not handle it. Even some early V12 & V16 distributors used dual points, condensers and dual coils to even out the load.

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John T

08-10-2005 10:49:51




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to Glen in TX, 08-10-2005 09:35:01  
Hi Glen, fun running into you guys over here on the "dark side" lol. Please correct me if Im wrong, but to add somethign to what you said which I agree with, isnt it also true a reason for the dual point distributors in extreme high RMP V8 distributors was to reduce point floating?? Given such high RPM and the points having to open n close so often, to get sufficient dwell time for coil current draw to saturare the core, the use of dual points (which had to open n close only 1/2 half the time) improved spark gap energy and reduced point float, RIGHT OR AM I ALL WET?????

John T

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Glen in TX

08-10-2005 13:13:57




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to John T, 08-10-2005 10:49:51  
Yes, John that's a good point and you are right I believe they did that because of point float at high RPM and for more dwell time. Points floating is something these pulling guys with a points system need to consider when running higher RPMs too but I don't believe it is a problem for most of them. On Vertex racing magnetos at high RPM we add a 1 or 2 extra springs to the points to control float and measure the pull on the points with a tension guage. Most of the stock condensers were not designed to be used with a high energy coil. Still sounds like to me he has a coil or electronic box problem or even advance wear or hanging up. I didn't know this was the dark side? lol sssss shhhhh hhh...

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John T

08-10-2005 06:51:16




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to family tradition, 08-09-2005 19:12:40  
Hi family and hi to my ol buddy Buick, Im over here cruising away from Mother Deere where we usually hang out lol.

First, that so called super coil or those high voltage coils STILL FIRE AT THE SAME VOLTAGE the old stock coil does given the same plug gap and combustion conditions (fuel type and compression). The firing voltage is a function of the plug gap and the medium in which it fires. The high voltage super coils are merely "capable of" ramping up to those higher voltages when and if necessary which is usually accomplished by running wider plug gaps and/or under high compressions and exotic fuels.

That being said, Im thinking like my buddy Buick in that the super coil may well be lower impedance (Then a stock coil of approx 3 ohms if a 12 volt or 1.5 ohms if a 6 volt) and drawing more current then the points and condensor were designed to handle. Overcurrent and its resultant heat are enemies of both the points and condensor. A ballpark figure for points and condensor switching is somewhere around 4 amps max.

To get the benefits available from a super coil, one usually uses an electronic switch (like the Pertronix) which can handle the higher coil current plus is a faster more positive switch with less ringing. They usually run a wider plug gap and end up with a fatter wider hotter spark to better ingite the fuel.

I dont see much if any benefit from the use of a super coil if youre still using mechanical ignition points and running the same plug gap, it still fires at the same voltage the stock coil would have. Plus, if its of lower impedance and the points and condensor are switching much higher then 4 amps, they are both gonna wear out soon. However, the super coil may be more efficient (less heat losses) to gain some advantages all else being equal.

Bottom line, if youre still using points, you should either run the stock coil or add the necessary external current limiting ballast resistance to achieve a total of around 3 ohms total (ballast plus coil) in the primary coil circuit. i.e. if the coil is 1.5 ohms you would need to add an external ballast of 1.5 ohms around 25 watts.

Clear as mud?????//

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer

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buickanddeere

08-10-2005 14:40:27




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to John T, 08-10-2005 06:51:16  
John T

Yes, I lead a double life.

b&d



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900Dave

08-10-2005 08:38:37




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to John T, 08-10-2005 06:51:16  
If you use electronic ignititon with a hot coil how much sparkplug gap can you go over stock in a lp tractor what size resister do you need to protect the coil.In a 12 volt system.

thanks Dave



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John T

08-10-2005 10:43:09




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to 900Dave, 08-10-2005 08:38:37  
Dave, the best plug gap is still a matter of the ignition system and compression and the fuel used, but generally speaking with a hot coil and an electronic switch, I would try in the 0.035 to 0.050 range. That higher energy ignition system can develop a higher voltage capable of sustaining a higher amperage arc across a wider plug gap to ignite the fuel, i.e. a wider, fatter, hotter, current arc with more surface area.

In cases of a 12 volt system with a hot coil and an electronic switch, theres usually no ballast at all required, but to be safe the current rating of the elec switch has to be rated to handle whatever current the coil draws and that has to be a question for the elec switch manufacturer (like Pertronix etc). I believe they make a couple different current rated electronic switches, one for one family of coils and a higher current rated switch for their super high energy coils?? In most cases, theres no ballast provided the switch is matched to their recommended coil.

I guess Im saying you better check with Pertronix to be safe so the switch can handle whatever current the coil draws.

Sorry I cant provide any exact answer, but theres too darn many unknown variables.

John T

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900Dave

08-11-2005 04:28:05




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to John T, 08-10-2005 10:43:09  
thanks for the info
Dave



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BushogPapa

08-09-2005 22:13:16




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to family tradition, 08-09-2005 19:12:40  
If the points are not burning, the Capacitance is OK...



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buickanddeere

08-09-2005 22:12:53




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to family tradition, 08-09-2005 19:12:40  
How many ohms is the coil's primary circuit? If it's approx 1.5 ohm than a ballast circuit is required to suply he coil with approx 6.0V. A 6V, 1.5 ohm coil on the 12V supply without a ballast will ruin a Pertronix unit or points.



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ChadS

08-10-2005 07:16:28




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to buickanddeere, 08-09-2005 22:12:53  
Ive had good luck with Accel Super Stock 12v coils. no resistor, and points and condensor. The coil does get warm to the touch, but not extremly hot. I ran MSD a year, and I kept burning up the coil wire, used the fiber wires, not the wire centered, it burned the fiber right off the connection. Caused a miss, I went to wire centered wires, and havent had trouble since. If your coil is getting very hot to the touch, it will short out inside, or if it may have got wet, it may be carbon tracking the distributor cap, You may also check your exhaust valve lash, If your running a different cam, lets say its tight onthe lash, it may run good when its cold, but when it warms up, clearences get tighter and mite hold the valve off the seat just a tad and let gasses escape under pressure. Causing the pop out the exhaust, ignition timing may be off too when this happens,, and cause a double standard. Loss of power, due to an improper timing settings due to the pop that your trying to cure. Also, if the mechanical advance in the distributor is bad, the rotor will do 1 of two things,, 1, either not move at all, or 2, float back and forth freely. #1 is not to hard to fix, but #2 can drive you nuts, it can sometimes stick too far advanced on the timing, and make it erratic, pops out the carb, or the exhaust, on the dyno, you could see the HP fluctuate,, that means the timing is floating around and not accurate. Im betting on valve lash or a leaky valve, or a vacuum leak. You changed everything on the IGN, and it still does it,, Hope this helps, Chad

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family tradition

08-10-2005 09:38:56




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to ChadS, 08-10-2005 07:16:28  
I had the 3ohm pertronix coil and ignitor, switched to the accel super stock coil and points. If the valve lash was the problem would the missing get really bad while pulling when the tractor gets under a heavy load? The tractor gets to where it will barely run when pulling it. Unhook it from the sled and it runs fine until you hook it up again, other than the backfiring! It is about to drive me crazy!

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ChadS

08-10-2005 13:42:27




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 Re: Coil too hot for points? in reply to family tradition, 08-10-2005 09:38:56  
Yes it would run fine at an idle, cause there is nothing forcing the engine to work at an idle. Put a load on it, and it will pop carry on like a bad valve. Put some stress on, and it will leak, whre at an idle, it wont leak so bad due to no load onthe engine. Are you running a custom cam in it, or a factory cam? Id assume you have gone thru the ignition with a fine tooth comb by now, has to be something mechanical, run a compression test, see if one cyl is low, if so, that may be the cyl leaking out the exhaust. Do this while it is warmed up, cold engines will throw you off the trail if it is in the heads, or??? Chad

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