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STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS

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B BARENIE

08-17-2005 15:45:01

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HALF TO HAVE EXTENSIVE WORK DONE ON A SET OF FARMAL 450 RODS, THINKING ABOUT CUSTOM ALUMINUM RODS INSTEAD.
BESIDES EASIER CLEARANCE, WOULD CUSTOM RODS OFFER ANY OTHER ADVANTAGE ?
IS AN ALUMINUM BILLET ROD STRONGER THAN THE STOCK ORIGINAL ROD !
DOES LESS CONNECTING ROD WEIGHT TRANSLATE INTO LESS LOW END TORQUE !

ANY INFORMATION WOULD BE HELPFUL !

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B BARENIE

08-18-2005 19:05:00

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EXCELLENT DISCUSSION in reply to B BARENIE, 08-17-2005 15:45:01

THE QUESTION WAS DEFINITELY ANSWERED !
THANK'S FOR ALL THE INPUT,

BUD BARENIE

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Yeoman

08-18-2005 07:32:54

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to B BARENIE, 08-17-2005 15:45:01

You are headed in the right direction; keep going. Alum is half the weight of iron and titanium is half the weight of aluminum; and tougher than snot!! Also while you are getting a nice strong set of rods made you can have them made any length you NEED; it has been done on red tractors before. Yes it works.

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ChadS

08-18-2005 09:46:50

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to Yeoman, 08-18-2005 07:32:54

Works on olivers too, if your building a time bomb using aluminum. Chad

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Drew

08-17-2005 16:20:24

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to B BARENIE, 08-17-2005 15:45:01

First off, turn the caps lock off..... ..

Anyway, if you are building a stroker engine, a billet rod is easier to clearence than one w/ a stock big end. BUT, you want a STEEL rod, not aluminum. You are not trying to turn a gazillion RPM, so an aluminum rod will not help. That is besides the fact that you have to put a lot more material into an aluminum rod to get the same strentgh as a steel rod. More material=harder to clear stuff in the bottom end.

Contrary to what chads wants the world to believe, a ligher connecting rod DOES NOT mean less low end torque. Maybe someday he will understand physics and the difference between rotating mass and reciprocating mass.

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jd b puller

08-18-2005 19:53:15

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to Drew, 08-17-2005 16:20:24

Drew, what does Murphys get for a pair of rods? and NO, I DON"T WANT ALUMINUM - one of the silliest ideas I have heard in years... Here we are trying our best to squeeze everything in there and somebody wants to make them out of something that has to be bigger to get the same strength... I"ve got welded rods but if I do it again soon then I might want to look at a 1 pc rod. I could give you a rod for a template.

2.56 big end
1.125 small end
about 11" center to center (give or take)

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Drew

08-18-2005 20:26:12

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to jd b puller, 08-18-2005 19:53:15

How wide is the big end? A big factor in the final cost is material cost. If they can be made from 1.500" thick material, it is cheaper than 1.750" thick material, especially when most of that extra steel will find its way into the chip barrel.

If you are doing a crank at the same time, it is cheaper to get all your ducks in a row and have the rod maker and the crankshaft maker on the same page. Then you can make the crank fit a 1.500" wide rod w/o having to narrow the stock any.

A sample rod is nice to have so exact bearing tang location can be measured. Also, to see if the chamfer on the big end has been modified to fit the crankshaft.

Another thing about aluminum rods that most people dont realize is they have a finate life span. They are good for just so long and then they are junk. The real $hitty part is for the most part, you cant just look at them and tell if they are about to break or not.

My email is open.

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G/MAN

08-19-2005 07:36:00

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to Drew, 08-18-2005 20:26:12

I've heard that about aluminum rods. I know that in automotive applications, they're only used in the super-duty racing engines that are on a set tear-down/replace schedule, such as in a Top-Fuel car. Does the aluminum work-harden and become brittle over time? I would think that installing aluminum rods in a pulling tractor would be asking for trouble.

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Yeoman

08-18-2005 07:57:41

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to Drew, 08-17-2005 16:20:24

What do you mean understand?? Fizziks? = Diarrhea; usually passes in a few days.

Resiprataking? = drinks alot; usually tooo much.

Looking forward to meeting you at the Grand Opening of the miracle governor spring factory and foundry tour. best, Phil

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ChadS

08-17-2005 16:56:27

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to Drew, 08-17-2005 16:20:24

Prove it on the dyno. Show me. Till then, a heavy rod engine will always out torque a lite rod engine. if the compression ratio, cam etc etc etc etc etc, or how ever many etc you wanna throw in,, are the same, the heavy rod will make more torque. Maybe weld 2 rods together,, maybe that will be better than both! Chad

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Yeoman

08-18-2005 07:26:04

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to ChadS, 08-17-2005 16:56:27

Queenie:

Why just two rods, why not three or four? WAJ.

The law of inertia: Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion, bodies at rest tend to stay at rest. In other words it takes more energy (measured as BTUs in gasoline) to accelerate and arrest the movement of the piston and rod, at each end of the stroke, if they are the heavy boat anchors you advocate, as opposed to the light stuff the DUMMIES in NASCAR and FORMULA racing use. The fact that tractor engines turn less RPMs does not mean that the law of inertia does not apply. best, Phil

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jd b puller

08-18-2005 15:04:21

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to Yeoman, 08-18-2005 07:26:04

Ok, I can"t take it anymore... The best way for me to do better is for all you guys to run the HEAVIEST pistons, rods, flywheels and cranks that you can muster. Make sure you have the pistons packed with lead to ensure the highest weight possible.

Let"s think about this for a minute... Now bear in mind that I am an injunear and we all know how "different" they can be. What is a flywheel for? I always thought it"s to take out intermittant shock loads and stabilize the system. Think of a brake press. Big sudden load, small motor, big flywheel.

Now think of tractor pulling. How many shock loads do you get? not many. Normally a gradual increase in power over time not all at once. Try it for yourself. Put your tractor at say 4MPH. Get it under a hard load and hit the kill switch. How far did you go? Where"s you inertia now?
Here"s another one. Replace the rear wheel on a bike with a nice heavy cast iron one and climb a hill with it. I know it isn"t an exact analagy because you are also adding weight to the system, but it"s the best I can come up with. Better yet, mount a Farmall H flywheel on a bicycle and gear it up so it spins real fast and see how that works on a long hill. make sure you do it on a nice straight spot, because it might turn your bike into a gyrascope and you won"t be able to turn it. not only does it take power to turn a rotating mass, but it takes even more power to accelerate when you get under steady or increasing load - try it.

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G/MAN

08-18-2005 16:03:13

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to jd b puller, 08-18-2005 15:04:21

Exactly. The general idea of some people here seems to be that once that big, heavy flywheel is turning, it ceases to take power to keep it to turning, and it somehow continues to ADD power to the drivetrain. I'm not real sure how that works. If it takes more power to GET it moving, it's going to take more power to KEEP it moving. Sure, with no load on the engine, and if you shut it off, it's going to keep the engine spinning longer. But under load, it adds additional load, and if you shut the engine off, it's going to stop faster. I shouldn't be surprised. I've seen discussions on here where various ideas were discussed for "building for horsepower", and not "building for torque". Funny, but I always thought that in order to increase horsepower, you HAD to increase torque, at least if you want to run the same engine speed.

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jd b puller

08-18-2005 17:22:07

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to G/MAN, 08-18-2005 16:03:13

G/MAN, we are going about this all wrong. Everyone else is right, the world is flat and that"s that. This topic seems to come up every 4 months with about the same results every time. If I was smart, and I can prove that I"m not, I"d just shut up and let sleeping dogs lie.

Using the theory that heavier is better will save me a ton of money for that billet crank I"m getting made. If all I have to do is take a big piece of round and machine off for the journals, and cut the splines, it will cut the lathe time by 75%-80%. I"ll just leave it full diamter whever there isn"t a journal or spline.

(Next comment MOT intended to pi$$ you off ChadS, don"t take it the wrong way)You build several hundred engines a year, certainly you have built an engine and then strapped 3 or 4 flywheels on it and put it on the dyno and lugged it down to 75% power for a good minute right? Sure, if you load it for 3-5 seconds and take a reading, the big flywheel will help, but if my math is correct, 300 feet at 3.5 MPH is about 58.44 seconds.

I"m done. I promise. Build "em how you like them. Those of you in NC, please build them as heavy as possible, I can use the help.

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ChadS

08-18-2005 09:37:04

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to Yeoman, 08-18-2005 07:26:04

Morning Doc! Prove it, quit reading your 1st grade science book and show the difference on a DYNO. Ever see one of those? Chad

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G/MAN

08-18-2005 16:04:28

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to ChadS, 08-18-2005 09:37:04

We've got one. Bring a tractor and two flywheels. One weighing twice what the other does. And we'll see how much difference the heavier one makes.

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Professor ram rod

08-17-2005 21:19:03

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to ChadS, 08-17-2005 16:56:27

When the center 2 rods travel down the end ones go up. One motion offsets the other. Simple physics for simple minds. In the case of the M or most 4 cyl tractor engines I would want a light rod= less force and friction on the center main berring as it supports the inertia from 2 cylinders and each end one supports 1.

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2 stroke

08-17-2005 19:40:43

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to ChadS, 08-17-2005 16:56:27

Sorry to butt in but if crank/flywheel was heavier you would see more torque because of inertia. This same inertia causes the rod/piston assembly to be harder to turn around if it is heavier when it reaches either end of its stroke.Regardless of rpm heavier reciprocating parts rob power. The only reason you might see more torque from a heavier rod is if the big end is heavier which is rotating weight, however this would not normaly compensate for the added reciprocating weight.

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G/MAN

08-18-2005 15:58:56

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to 2 stroke, 08-17-2005 19:40:43

There is no way that heavier components can rob power (assuming you're talking horsepower) and increase torque at the same time. Horsepower is a function OF torque, and if you're increasing torque, the horsepower will increase also at a given RPM. A heavy flywheel or rotating assembly is not some magic power enhancer that once brought to up to speed is going to continue to add torque. Sure, the mass will make the assembly more resistant to being slowed down by a load, but that isn't the same as adding torque. Regardless of whether you're accelerating that mass as the engine speeds up, or are keeping the engine at a certain RPM, that additional mass takes additional power to keep it in motion. Generally speaking, an engine will receive the greatest benefits across the board from using components that are as light as possible that still provide sufficient strength. Heavy parts put more stress on the parts they're connected to, are harder to balance, and are harder to accelerate. According to the flawed theory that heavier parts make more torque, a rod heavier on the little end would also help, as any additional weight anywhere in the rod is going to be "pushing" on the crankshaft harder. I'd like to see dyno results from an engine with a 50-lb flywheel and one with a 100-lb flywheel to see what, if any, difference there is in torque output. A heavy flywheel can make a car take off from a stop better because of it's additional mass and inertia. That's not adding torque. In fact, since it's heavier and harder to accelerate, it's ROBBING torque, because the extra effort from the crankshaft that could be going into the transmission is instead accelerating that heavier flywheel. This ought to open a big can of worms.

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Mopower

08-18-2005 05:54:49

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to 2 stroke, 08-17-2005 19:40:43

I'm glad someone finally nailed this. I was wondering the same thing. Always figured a rod with a heavy big end was not as bad as being heavy out towards the piston. Reciprocating mass helps no one and any speed. Rotating mass is a different story. Look at motocross bike flywheels vs. the enduro x-country ones. Cross country usually runs a heavier flywheel.

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yeah kinda

08-17-2005 19:58:48

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to 2 stroke, 08-17-2005 19:40:43

yes heavier parts rob HORSEpower, but do not rob torque. they add torque because of the heavier mass. basically heavier parts make your engine lug better. pulling typical 10-20-30% over RPMs as most of us do, that's what we need. if you're running tons of RPMs you're looking for horsepower and not torque, so then you go for the light stuff. every engine builder I've talked to has said this same stuff.

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buickanddeere

08-18-2005 08:35:26

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to yeah kinda, 08-17-2005 19:58:48

Heavier rotating parts cause the engine to accelerate slower due to more more interia to over come. That can make a heavy rod and flywheel engine seem pokey compaired to an otherwise identical light weight engine. I'll take the heavy flywheel for pulling. Less stress on the drivetrain too.

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B BARENIE

08-18-2005 05:25:19

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to yeah kinda, 08-17-2005 19:58:48

AFTER HAVING AN (M) CRANK STROKED 1/2" , I WILL WEIGH THE CRANK TO SEE HOW MUCH INCREASE THERE WAS IN ACTUAL WEIGHT!
I UNDERSTAND CRANKSHAFT/FLYWHEEL WEIGHT, BUT AT THIS TIME I CANNOT SEE HOW HEAVY ROD/PISTON COMBO
CAN ADD TO LOW END TORQUE.

THANK'S FOR EVERYONE'S INPUT

BUD BARENIE

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P Ram Rod

08-18-2005 09:35:29

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to B BARENIE, 08-18-2005 05:25:19

I made a steel flywheel leaving the center of it as light as possiable and putting as much mass as possiable in the outer diameter. Let's say that if 2 flywheels weigh the same but one has the mass on the outer diameter the other more twards the center the outer-mass one will have more inertia. Works real well it just needs a bit extra time to get wound up which is not a problem in tractor pulling. I made another like it for a friend, nothing else changed on the engine, the tractor gained a gear and will lug a lot longer.

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Goldsburg

08-19-2005 09:33:19

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to P Ram Rod, 08-18-2005 09:35:29

How do I get myself one of them there horsepower makin' flywheels?

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jd b puller

08-21-2005 11:15:31

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to Goldsburg, 08-19-2005 09:33:19

Oh, you can"t have them. You have too much power already.

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G/MAN

08-19-2005 13:37:13

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Re: STOCK RODS VERSES ALUMINUM CUSTOM RODS in reply to Goldsburg, 08-19-2005 09:33:19

I think Denny is going to start selling them, along with high-performance piston-return springs and Torrington radial-thrust muffler bearings for better scavenging.

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