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powerblocks at Tunica

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G-money

09-01-2005 20:18:04

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Can John Deeres use powerblocks in farmstock II

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G/MAN

09-07-2005 16:42:27

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to G-money, 09-01-2005 20:18:04

It looks to me that if the rules clearly state "stock un-stroked" engines, then Power-Blocks must be legal, as they only increase the bore of the engine. As far as that goes, if a guy really wanted to get sneaky, I'm sure it's possible to hog a stock two-cylinder block way out and install sleeves or something to get close to the same bore as a Power-Block, if not more. To my way of thinking, parts like Power-Blocks and M&W cranks were bolt-on performance mods made to make the tractor perform better in the field. That's a little different than someone starting with a bare Farmall or whatever block and poking, stroking, clearancing, and whatever else to build a one-purpose engine.

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Spotter

09-04-2005 17:33:17

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Weren't no expert!!! in reply to G-money, 09-01-2005 20:18:04

I weren't no expert when all this started but after staying in a Holiday-Inn last night and cipherin' thru all these posts "by-dangit" I sure feel like one now!!!....Spotter

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jd b puller

09-04-2005 08:40:00

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to G-money, 09-01-2005 20:18:04

G-Money - I guess I can't see what all the fuss is about. Here's the rules --

FARMSTOCK II CLASSES (3-1/2 MPH any gear)
Pre-1960 Tractors with stock "un-stroked" engines...Top cut tires allowed...Maximum tire size: 16.9 X 38 up to and including 6500#...18.4 X 38 for all other weight divisions...Hang on weights permitted...10% over stock RPM allowed...Wheelie bars and break-away switches are mandatory...Hitch height and weight locations are same as modified classes.
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Now, you can't tell me that someone would bring a Farmall H or M with a M&W kit or heaven for bid, a stroker crank and gargantuan pistons, custom heads, big cam, MSD ignition. It's just a bunch of farm tractors getting together. It's just totally unconciounable that someone would bring a "built" motor to a pull like this for FS II class. That kind of thing never happens. I am sure all the tractors would be bone stock for those classes.

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colekicker

09-03-2005 10:03:50

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to G-money, 09-01-2005 20:18:04

Doesn't it basically come down to the fact that the powerblock is not a JD factory part? JD never made them, they were made by someone else, and not available from JD. Just read the rules as they state, and don't read anything else that isn't there. Of course there will be gray areas in any set of rules, and everyone that wants to win bad enough will push the limits in the gray areas to try and get ahead. With the speed limit you can only get rolling so fast. Remember, at most pulls its a $5 trophy. So just have fun.

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G/MAN

09-07-2005 16:24:09

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to colekicker, 09-03-2005 10:03:50

I don't have a dog in this fight, but Power-Blocks were built to do the same thing the various M&W components were built for - increase the FIELD performance of FARM tractors. They sure didn't build them to sell to pullers back in the day. If the rules only pertain to stroke and not bore, then a Power-Block should be perfectly legal.

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Earl G

09-04-2005 10:58:25

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to colekicker, 09-03-2005 10:03:50

are you saying that m&w kits with M&W stroked cranks for farmall hs and ms are factory replacement parts for Internationals? because that is the way it reads when you are saying the reason john deeres cant use powerblocks, which I am not sure they should be able to use either in that class, but of course you probably also think it is ok to use a 450 block and head on a 39 M and call that antique also

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colekicker

09-04-2005 16:03:47

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Earl G, 09-04-2005 10:58:25

No, M&W stroked cranks were not factory parts. They were not made by IH or found in an IH parts book. Firecrater IH kits were in an IH parts book. The supercession chain for the part numbers shows that the 450 head eventually replaced the head for a 39 M. The factory said that, not some one else. When it comes down to it, the parts that started production in 39 were superceeded by the parts that were made in 58 in most cases, not all. But just read the rules.

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Earl G

09-04-2005 17:18:39

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to colekicker, 09-04-2005 16:03:47

well I think farm stock should be farm stock, and if they willnot allow power blocks they shouldn't allow lp heads, M&W cranks, or even blocks were made in the 50s for a tractor built in 1939, and I have a 1939 Farmall M

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Flogger

09-02-2005 17:02:48

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to G-money, 09-01-2005 20:18:04

Keep stock antique pulling at 3-3.5 mph, stock rpm, watch the hitches and tires, and don't worry too much about what is under the hood. For that matter bring on those 3010s, 4010s, 706-806s if they can pull by the antique rules.

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dctom

09-03-2005 06:49:24

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Flogger, 09-02-2005 17:02:48

I agree. i always said horse power dont count un less you run out than you dont have enough, keep the low gear rule and let them try to get 100 hp to the ground

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buickanddeere

09-03-2005 03:30:44

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Flogger, 09-02-2005 17:02:48

I agree. With the speed limits, the HP cheaters don't have an advantage. Some track officials do have a habit of forgetting to check some tractors hitch height, tractor weight and the tires for signs of cutting.

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Kevin

09-02-2005 11:30:33

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to G-money, 09-01-2005 20:18:04

I dont know rules for tunica but this is how i interpret the farmstock/div II rules for my area. Basicly they say all external parts must have a factory replacement part # on them or a just the original part #. Now they never say the internal part must be stock or replacement. Now a farmall 450 block is a factory replacement part from IH, the JD power block was not factory replacement. Now heads, that gets kinda tricky, but all colors can cheat there so dont complain. It simply comes down to who had the best factory replacment parts.

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dudley409

09-02-2005 09:50:45

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to G-money, 09-01-2005 20:18:04

Pull a MM nobody knows what they are or what should be on them you can get away with anything. almost.

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TheOldMan

09-02-2005 22:39:50

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to dudley409, 09-02-2005 09:50:45

Don't be trying anything slick on a MM if I am at the pull. I know what is what. I even know the rated RPM on nearly all MM models.

TheOldMan

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Lamont

09-03-2005 20:55:14

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to TheOldMan, 09-02-2005 22:39:50

How do you tell if one has 800 HD jugs and heads on it?

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Spotter

09-01-2005 23:08:09

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to G-money, 09-01-2005 20:18:04

G-money,
Correct me if I am wrong with any of my statements as I'm not an expert in this area. I will offer this explanation, however.

My understanding is that "power blocks" were supplied only by sources other than John Deere and were not part of the "stock" tractor as it left the factory. The larger bores of course made their specs differ from OEM specs. If I'm correct in my understandings then my opinion would be that a tractor with the "power block" should not be considered stock and therefore would not be eligible to pull in the farmstock classes.

The rules specifically allow "power blocks" in the modified classes which is also an indication that their "characteristics" are something other than stock.

I guess this has just been a "long winded" way of saying no, huh....Spotter

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G/MAN

09-07-2005 16:29:05

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Spotter, 09-01-2005 23:08:09

If you want to get into an arguement on what a tractor left the factory with, where do you draw the line? JD "G"s ALL left the factory as all-fuel tractors. Low-compression and hot manifolds. Several companies, including M&W, offered high-compression pistons and others offered cold manifolds to increase the performance. Deere itself also made gasoline conversion kits for the "G", consisting of higher-compression pistons and F1074R "cold" manifolds. Should those modifications be legal, seeing as how the tractor maker offered them? I daresay there are more than a few all-fuel Farmall "M"s that are running gasoline engines. They didn't leave the factory that way, did they?

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WTW

09-02-2005 10:22:23

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Spotter, 09-01-2005 23:08:09

Spotter, I agree with what you said about the Power-Block being an after market part. The problem lies is why are you picking on John Deere's? A Power-Block in a John Deere is no different than Oversize "After Market" M&W pistons in a Farmall or a any other brand. Are you going to pull pans or heads to make sure they have there stock bore replacement parts in them. I know the answer. So back to my original question. Why John Deere? The Power-Block in a John Deere tractor is no different than the oversize aftermarket pistons and parts in other brands that you know are out there and in the same tractors pulling in the same class. Just because you can easily identify it that make it illegal! Sounds pretty one sided to me. DW

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Spotter

09-02-2005 15:41:47

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to WTW, 09-02-2005 10:22:23

WTW,
My comments were directed toward "legality" while your point, although being well taken, concerns the issue of "equity".

Perfect equity, equality and fairness are seldom possible and this is certainly true with tractor pulling.

Two perfectly stock tractors of different brands will never be equal in all respects and to reduce the potential of one in order to establish "equity" for the other only serves to create an "inequity" for the one who's potential has been reduced. Therefore, a "legal" approach to the subject becomes the "equitable" approach since every puller has the opportunity to choose the tractor that has the best pulling potential.

I don't like the fact that all the other guys get the "purty" girls. It ain't fair but it's just a fact of life. I've learned to deal with it. Traded a couple in hoping for an "equitable" solution but haven't had a winner yet...Spotter

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Lamont

09-02-2005 10:47:11

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to WTW, 09-02-2005 10:22:23

Duh !! Just hide it on the John Deere tractors.

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jd b puller

09-04-2005 08:31:51

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Lamont, 09-02-2005 10:47:11

And how do you propose to do that? Powerblocks are pretty obvious... I don"t think WTW is looking to cheat, just play by the rules.

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Lamont

09-04-2005 13:06:27

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to jd b puller, 09-04-2005 08:31:51

Ingenuity, or should I say ENGINEuity?

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jd b puller

09-04-2005 13:24:56

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Lamont, 09-04-2005 13:06:27

Lamont, if you"ve got to cheat to win, then by all means, cheat away. And if you aren"t sharp enough to recognize a PowerBlock just because someone ground off the words "Power Block", you aren"t trying very hard. If you guys would spend half as much effort trying to play by the rules and not seeing what you can get away with, imagine how good you could actually be.

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Lamont

09-04-2005 13:48:12

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to jd b puller, 09-04-2005 13:24:56

No cheating here. Just advising those who are complaining about "cheaters" to push the rules to limits also. By all means, stay within the confines of what the rules say, but use every advantage you can. Who mentioned grinding anything? I am opposed to cheating, but I love ingenuity !!

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Greenman

09-02-2005 09:04:26

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Spotter, 09-01-2005 23:08:09

Then why would an IH M be allowed a 400 or 450 block or head? They never left the Chicago Boneyard Maker (factory) with those parts. Or is this just more IH (infected hooker) single minded thinking so they get their usual BS cheating advantage?

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Lamont

09-02-2005 10:43:38

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Greenman, 09-02-2005 09:04:26

400 or 450 heads didn't come from the IH factory? Where did they come from?

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Greenman

09-02-2005 19:09:04

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Lamont, 09-02-2005 10:43:38

No one said those heads didn`t come from the Chicago Junk Yard Supply House. They did not come on any form of IH M. Try to keep up!

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Lamont

09-03-2005 06:54:05

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Greenman, 09-02-2005 19:09:04

I think the point was that a Power Block NEVER came stock on ANY tractor. OUCH ! That might step on the MM boys' toes a little. Did the 800 HD EVER come on ANY tractor from the factory? I'll be willing to bet a LARGE sum that somebody will be running 800 HD heads on some Molines in those Far(fro)m Stock Classes. That would be the surest bet in Tunica. This does raise some interesting questions. I'm sure someone has logical explanation for the 800 HD heads being allowed.

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G/MAN

09-07-2005 16:37:43

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Lamont, 09-03-2005 06:54:05

So what do you do if some guy decides to get into antique pulling, and gets his grandpa's old "A" or "G" out of the barn and takes it to a pull? Suppose that tractor had a Power-Block installed in it 1953, so old Gramps could pull another plow bottom, or move up a gear in the field? Are the "correct police" going to jump all over his butt and tell him his tractor isn't "stock" and he can't pull? None of those M&W parts, Power-Blocks and so forth were sold with to pullers in order to simply increase on-track performance. They were sold to increase IN-FIELD performance. They were fairly common, and as far as I'm concerned, any part that's been on the tractor for 40 years or was available at the time the tractor was new or nearly new and was made to improve field performance may as well be considered "stock". And it's not like a Power-Block is going to gain you 25-hp at any rate. Ever seen any of the old Power-Block literature, and what TSC claimed for performance increases? I have.

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Hillbilly Hooker

09-03-2005 19:59:38

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Lamont, 09-03-2005 06:54:05

Wrong, To use the 800 heads they would have to have the blocks to go with them. Very easy to notice. H.H.

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Lamont

09-03-2005 20:53:48

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Hillbilly Hooker, 09-03-2005 19:59:38

Does it say "800 HD" on the blocks? I really wouldn't know what to look for. Does everyone else know? I'm not being a smart A. I just really don't think everyone else knows what to look for and I think it would be a pretty sure bet that someone is going to run 800 jugs and heads if they can get by with it. Then, here they are pulling a 100+ HP tractor in the "Farmstock" class.

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G/MAN

09-07-2005 16:30:06

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Lamont, 09-03-2005 20:53:48

Ever heard of casting numbers???

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Lamont

09-07-2005 19:08:57

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to G/MAN, 09-07-2005 16:30:06

What are the casting numbers for the 800 HD heads, blocks, etc. ?

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G/MAN

09-08-2005 07:35:16

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Lamont, 09-07-2005 19:08:57

I'm not a Minnie guy, but I'm sure there are several guys on here that know them backward and forward. Start a new thread and ask.

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720Deere

09-02-2005 10:17:42

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Greenman, 09-02-2005 09:04:26

I'm green all the way, but the arguement that the red guys have is that IH offered the 400 block as a direct factory replacement for the M. Thus it is kosher most places. I don't agree, but that's how it is.

It's amazing how they say that 4 cylinders are better than 2, yet they feel the need for more power in order to beat the "underpowered" 2 cylinders. It doesn't matter if you know what you are doing, you don't need a power block.

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Unknown Puller

09-02-2005 10:49:24

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to 720Deere, 09-02-2005 10:17:42

The 400 or 450 block might be the factory replacement for an M or super M, but an LP head is not the factory replacement head for a gas or all-fuel motor. Different part numbers. Tunica used to be pretty much "don't ask--don't tell" on the power blocks. If power blocks aren't allowed, then there are alot of things in other colored tractors that shouldn't be either. Fair is fair. Cut and non-cut or not altered tires was the big thing about who was legal or not.

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Spotter

09-02-2005 10:13:34

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Greenman, 09-02-2005 09:04:26

Greenman,
The intent of my statement was:

"If it isn't stock, other than what is spelled out in the rules, then it should not be considered eligible to pull in the Farmstock classes".

This logic applies to all tractors regardless of color, gender or sexual-preference. I don't think my remarks contained an implied assumption that "any" non-stock blocks would be eligible/allowed in FarmStock I or FarmStock II.....Spotter

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SPT

09-02-2005 10:58:32

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Help me understand. in reply to Spotter, 09-02-2005 10:13:34

I do not want to argue the point of discussion either way, only to understnad the interpretation of the rules in farmstock I & II.
My understanding that any stock (no bore, no stroke, any head work because that is not part of the block) is OK. To me there is a difference between stock blocks and factory stock blocks and I am sure some further argument on these.
We are planning on traveling a far piece to participate this year, but with the most current increase in fuel, we want to fully understand what classes we are eligible for. Bottom line, D-17 engines in WD-45's? 450 in super M's?, G molines in U's? 301's in 460's? and 310's in Oliver 88's, and others that I am unfamiliar with?
I am speaking only of farmstock I & II, and only want to understand what will be allowed and what will not. Mostly if rules allow us to pull in classes we are most accustomed to, that we come and have a good time. We pull a good many pulls with John and USAP, so that may tell you what rules we are accustomed to, the horn usually levels the playing field.
Now, I may be wrong, but I would have to think your job will be about as tough as explainig why fuel prices took such a great increase.
Sorry for the long post, but only want to come and have a good time. Juder Smith Smith Pulling Team

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Spotter

09-02-2005 11:39:36

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Re: Help me understand. in reply to SPT, 09-02-2005 10:58:32

Juder,
Your interpretation, in my opinion, is on the mark and exemplifies the attitude we are striving for. It is our intent to keep farmstock classes as "farmstock" as possible. There will always be differences of opinions and we generally work through them. Why don't you e-mail me with what you're planning to bring. You seem to have done your "homework" but if we can help you we'll certainly try...Spotter

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SPT

09-02-2005 12:06:14

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E-mail sent. in reply to Spotter, 09-02-2005 11:39:36

Thank you.

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Lamont

09-02-2005 10:41:34

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Spotter, 09-02-2005 10:13:34

Spotter,

I'll have to disagree with you on one point. I feel ONLY heterosexual tractors should be allowed to pull. :)

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Spotter

09-02-2005 11:21:53

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Lamont, 09-02-2005 10:41:34

Lamont,
I would have expected as much from an old "hardshell Baptist", LOL. I think you'll find a proper response in Romans 2:1...Spotter

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Drew

09-01-2005 20:46:04

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to G-money, 09-01-2005 20:18:04

I saw some using them last year.

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Lamont

09-02-2005 09:02:17

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Drew, 09-01-2005 20:46:04

SOME ??

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mta puller

09-02-2005 10:54:21

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Lamont, 09-02-2005 09:02:17

So what all you J D guys are saying is that since my Torque Amplifier was factory installed I can use it?Shoe now on different foot?

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09-02-2005 11:26:45

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to mta puller, 09-02-2005 10:54:21

MW made a nice crank for a M also, thats just as stock as a JD power block.

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Get a Grip

09-02-2005 17:38:52

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to in, 09-02-2005 11:26:45

Why in the heck do you guys worry about what tractors have what in them if you have a speed limit. I smell the beginning of the end for tunnica. It seems when someone has something going good, they can leave it alone and set out to screw it up. Get a grip and go pullin.

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Spotter

09-02-2005 18:28:58

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Get a Grip, 09-02-2005 17:38:52

Grip,
You make a good point. If one will check they will see that the "power blocks" in question were never specified as legal in farmstock. Nothing has really changed except adding some classes that make for more entry points....Spotter

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Get A Grip

09-02-2005 20:16:17

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Re: powerblocks at Tunica in reply to Spotter, 09-02-2005 18:28:58

What is up with the 2" carb location rule? If you can't run but 12mph. what would it matter if they have a V12 Allison it it? You can nit pick things to death, that seems to be one of the biggest problems with antique pulling. You guys have problems INFORCING hitch heights and weight limits much less throwing out Power Blocks. Either way, it is your pull run it as you wish.

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SPT

09-03-2005 05:35:39

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Almost as much fun as pullin' in reply to Get A Grip, 09-02-2005 20:16:17

Reading the posts.

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Spotter

09-03-2005 06:55:15

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Re: Almost as much fun as pullin' in reply to SPT, 09-03-2005 05:35:39

SPT,
As usual the intelligent posts have pretty much been made and now all that remains are those who just rant about non-specifics. It's time to move on...so we're loading up and heading to Arkansas to pull with the Hillbillies. Keep in touch if we can be of assistance regarding Tunica....Spotter

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SPT

09-03-2005 17:29:07

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Re: Almost as much fun as pullin' in reply to Spotter, 09-03-2005 06:55:15

Be safe and have fun.

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