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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Deck plates

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ChadS

12-31-2005 17:36:59




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Question,,,, I have a farmall block, that has been bored and has had sleeves pressed into the block, now it is a wet sleeve engine. The tops of the sleeves have not been welded in to the block, and I know, over time, they will begin to lose its seal and leak water into the cyl. What I want to do is, set a 1/2 deck plate on top of the block, then, install a dry sleeve insert into the block. Giving me a 1/2 inch taller deck, and the bore size I want to run. Question is,, how do I seal the deck plate from the top of the original block? Thin copper head gasket? orings? With the dry sleeves pressed in, that will keep water out of my cyls, and possibly give it some strength, the block will be hard blocked up to the bottom of the water plate, and water allowed to circulate thru the head and the top 4 inches of the block. So, water will be present in the area of the deck plate and the block. Im trying to keep the water out of the oil pan, and keep it from leaking inbetween the deck plate, and the block. Im having studs made, that will screw into the original block, the plate will have counter bores set in each head stud location to hide a fastener without interfering with the head gasket to hold the plate in place. The deck plate will be the only thing holding the dry sleeves down in the block, and hard blocked at the bottom,,, Do you guys think this will work?? ChadS

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Masseypuller

01-03-2006 08:35:50




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 Re: Deck plates in reply to ChadS, 12-31-2005 17:36:59  
Chad -

I have never had a wet sleeve engine leak water at the top, even with cracked upper decks. This is using universal repair sleeves (0.125" wall). I don"t think this is something that you really need to worry about (unless you are looking for an excuse to use a deck plate!)...

Regards,

Masseypuller



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Masseypuller

01-03-2006 08:37:18




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 Re: Deck plates in reply to Masseypuller, 01-03-2006 08:35:50  
Sorry! Forgot to mention that none of the sleeves in my engines were welded at the top. They use a .0015 to .002" press fit only...



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Chads

01-03-2006 09:13:42




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 Re: Deck plates in reply to Masseypuller, 01-03-2006 08:37:18  
At first, I dont have trouble, then as time goes along, the block cracks inbetween the cyls and then it looses the press fit at the top of the bore, then leaks water into the cyl, and into the oil. The block gets thin inbetween the cyls when I put in pressed sleeves, and what happens is when the head gets torqued down, it pulls up on that weak area and cracks the block in that area. I figure, If I can put a plate in, to help hold the top of the block more steady, it wont flex. The reason I want to deck plate is to build a stronger block deck and keep it alive for a long time, and if I ever have to rebuild the engine, (and Im sure I will someday,,) I can pull outthe sleeves, and put new ones in and still use the block. Currently, the block I have has the sleeves pressed in, and they are .180 thick, basicly siamezed, but not touching each other,, I can run a big bore with that set up, but with out the plate, the deck will fail, even if I welded them in. There is nothing there to weld. But, with a plate, and sleeve inserts, it will be almost like a stock dry sleeve setup. Chad

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Masseypuller

01-04-2006 12:41:53




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 Re: Deck plates in reply to Chads, 01-03-2006 09:13:42  
I would say that either the press fit on your sleeves is too tight or your are over-torquing your head bolts...?

I had one engine that I ran for 5+ years, then sold it to a guy who ran it for another 5. I then bought the engine back, installed new bearings, rings, and ground the valves. The engine then had the original level of power and still no cracks in the top deck of the block...



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ChadS

01-04-2006 15:02:12




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 Re: Deck plates in reply to Masseypuller, 01-04-2006 12:41:53  
I dont know on the press fit, but the torque is at stock, in 3 round increments,, The first engine ran for about 6 years, it always had a leak in the oil, but not bad,, then #1 started getting water in the cyl, pulled the head off, and found crack between 1 and 2. So, I did the best i could to keep the cyl sealed, and later pulled the engine out. I welded the tops of the sleeves in the block deck, I should have installed new sleeves at the time I welded them, but did not,, they balloned out at the top above where the hard block was, so it was loose at the top, and tight in the lower bore. Tore up the pistons,, so I scrapped the idea of trying to keep it running, and built a big ci engine, well, that lasted about one season, and i sold the parts. So i going back to the original design once ran, but I am working to keep it together for longer than 6 years this time without so much worry, and changing oil every time I took it to a pull. So, i still had the crank, rods cam, head, etc from the 6 year engine, and workin on building a stronger block. I can say, that the engine never got hot,, always could never get it off the cold mark,, even on the dyno, never detonated, or preignited, just block fatigue between the cyls, water everywhere,,, it ran bout 290psi of compression,, but I am cutting that back to about 250-260 in that area,, that will help keep the cyls from balloning over time,,, and especially if there is something behind the sleeve to hold it more steady. Chad

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stroker 88

01-01-2006 09:46:56




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 Re: Deck plates in reply to ChadS, 12-31-2005 17:36:59  
i can see your intentions on the top side. good flat surfaces and thin copper would be my way of approach. the hard block in the bottom always worries me. what if you get a leak down there? it is almost impossible to get back in there again. just my experience and feelings. stroker



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ChadS

01-01-2006 15:51:57




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 Re: Deck plates in reply to stroker 88, 01-01-2006 09:46:56  
I thought bout that too,,,, I seen the bottom bores of the block before the sleeves were pressed in, used plenty of sealer before they were pressed in. So, Im thinking that Ill have a good seal on the lower side. Alot of trouble I had in the past, is where some of the old block was left over and stuck up just a tad,, rusty material, after time, it shook it loose and started leaking. This time, there is nothing there,, nothing to break loose. Thats what happened the last time it started leaking inthe pan. That, and the sleeves were much thinner before in the old motor, this one has bout twice as thick, and it is a new style block, so it has a bit more meat there to put in something thicker. Chad

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jd b puller

01-04-2006 21:03:40




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 Re: Deck plates in reply to ChadS, 01-01-2006 15:51:57  
Chad, you building a Division V monster? Per the NATPA rules, you can't have a deck plate, even for strength. I know not everyone runs NATPA rules, but they are a good guide.

Out of curiosity, is the deck height the same on the D-17 as on the WC/WD/WD45?



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ChadS

01-05-2006 07:56:02




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 Re: Deck plates in reply to jd b puller, 01-04-2006 21:03:40  
No, just renewing an old flame. USAP allows em, so thats what Im building it for. Im not sure on the deck height on the AC"s,,, I would imagine they are all the same,,, Im building a model H,, again,,, Chad



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jd b puller

01-05-2006 09:50:57




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 Re: Deck plates in reply to ChadS, 01-05-2006 07:56:02  
USAP seems to be the hot thing right now. Less bickering and easy to follow rules. Could be the next big thing and displace the NATPA stuff.



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ChadS

01-05-2006 12:27:06




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 Re: Deck plates in reply to jd b puller, 01-05-2006 09:50:57  
Yeah, I miss pulling with USAP! But will return soon. Just a bunch of good ol boys who love what they do to support antique pulling! It will take a long time to shinny up NATPA again. I think USAP is already there,,, I think pullers should support both groups, I think a tournament between the two clubs, NATPA VS USAP would be a huge event, then, take the winners, and pull, but king of the hill name is already taken,, would be just fun to wittness, or compete. Chad

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