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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

450 Farmall cam

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jhb

02-07-2007 05:58:30

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Is a 400 Farmall cam the same as a 450 cam? Also is the 450 gas cam the same as the 450 LP cam?

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buickanddeere

02-09-2007 18:05:04

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to jhb, 02-07-2007 05:58:30

Has anyone ever ran a degree wheel and a dial indicator on these various cam to find out if and what difference there is?

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D Slater

02-07-2007 19:21:17

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to jhb, 02-07-2007 05:58:30

Cams have got changed in engines over the years until its hard to go by different engines on which cam will be found. If its a IH cam that you can find a IH number on which is sometimes hard to see or can't be found. If you can 45955 D was used in M, SM and SMTA, 45955 DA was used in 400 and part of 450 gas and LP, 45955 DB was used in last 2/3 or so of 450 gas ,LP engines and used the left hand threads on nut and cam that hold cam gear on.

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randy hall

02-08-2007 19:37:04

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to D Slater, 02-07-2007 19:21:17

dave a friend of ours has the original instuctions from a fire-crater kit and it says to get the most from the kit to use a 450 cam.

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D Slater

02-08-2007 20:59:50

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to randy hall, 02-08-2007 19:37:04

Randy 450 tractors were out when kit was sold so its only natural for IH to recomend there latest Cam as they did in 1955 before 450 came out as stated in post I made below. But unless they put the cam # they recomended in kit how do we know if there recomending cam 45955 DA or 45955 DB or both. Should have known better than to get started on this subject. Just sold my last good 45955 D cam, but have some 45955 DA and DB I can check against each other when I get to it.

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randy hall

02-09-2007 07:03:12

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to D Slater, 02-08-2007 20:59:50

dave, firecrater kits from ih did not arrive until '61 according to my literature.

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D Slater

02-09-2007 09:35:41

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to randy hall, 02-09-2007 07:03:12

Randy I wonder if buy 1961 IH was selling any other cam for M through 450 besides the late 450 cam. Noticed that 1961 date for firecrators before and don't want to start another arguement but I run across some info a while back with firecrators dated before 1961. Will see if I can find it again and get back with you. Only reason I got on this post was because Chad S is always telling people a SM cam is better than a M and I don't think thats always the case so I thought maybe some debate would help. Hope chad or anyone else does'nt get mad,just looking for the truth and if I find out I,m wrong I will post back and admit it.

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Real Puller

02-09-2007 10:12:18

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to D Slater, 02-09-2007 09:35:41

Chad has never been wrong. In his own little world, the laws of physics do not apply. Flywheels create their own horsepower, fuel burns without air, horsepower does not equal torque x RPMs. And my favorite, higher compression makes a motor suck harder.

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ChadS

02-09-2007 11:22:30

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to Real Puller, 02-09-2007 10:12:18

Now your catching on! HAHAHA! I said the flywheel weight affects TORQUE,, not HORSEPOWER. Chad

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Real Puller

02-09-2007 11:31:02

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to ChadS, 02-09-2007 11:22:30

And in your world, horsepower and torque have nothing in common.

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ChadS

02-09-2007 15:49:11

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to Real Puller, 02-09-2007 11:31:02

You got it! right is left, left is right, up is down and down is up. Somebody give the teacher an apple here!!! HAHA! Chad

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OH,, HEY Real,,,,,,

02-09-2007 22:21:25

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to ChadS, 02-09-2007 15:49:11

Whats the answer to my question I left you in the MSD post??? You know,,,,, What you could be if I can out pull you??? Whats the phrase,,, first loser it could be??? Or second,, is not first,,, I get confused when my colors or my up n downs get out of whack,,,, teach!! So,, your a puller for real??? I could be out stealing hubcaps for my education tonight, but instead I decided to BS you to death. AHAHAHAHA!!! You got a sense of humor dont you?? So,, do you pull and what do you run? I was, and still remain a puller before I started assembling engines etc etc,,, So, why not either have a conversation about pulling. If you wanna talk science,, the preach on! Do what you gotta do. Make sure you have all your HOT ROD literature handy,,,, K? As for me, I got a green 50 M farmall,,,, I pull a div one type class with it. What Ive done to it is irrelivant,, but its a good puller,,, just ask some on this board who know it. Thats right I SAID JOHN DEERE GREEN farmall M. We have 2 super H's as well, as well as 2 H modifieds as well. Sure have had alot of fun pulling them,,,, wish it was warmer,,, like in Florida or something,,,,, Put on my straw hat and find a beach to pull on into the sunset. maybe one day when Im old,, Ill make a piece of property down there and make it a pulling paradise! Are you a real puller??? Can you relate to that? Seen alot about the Florida flywheelers show down there, kinda would like to visit that show one day. Seen it on RFD-TV,,,, But since the sattelite screwed us over,, we dont get that anymore! So,,, Im in tractor withdrawl. May just load up the green M and go south for the winter sometime! Are you a real puller man??? Got any pulling stories about how your tractor has slipped of the ramps of the trailer when a sudden storm hits? Ever had a winning streak? Can you be competition? or you just full of hot air? I dont want your name dude,,, just,, be a real puller!!!???? No engine BS Science,,, after all,, its a pulling discussion board,,, Right? ChadS

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b barenie

02-11-2007 15:45:22

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to OH,, HEY Real,,,,,,, 02-09-2007 22:21:25

Please post your name !

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D Slater

02-08-2007 20:17:54

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to randy hall, 02-08-2007 19:37:04

Whats the date on fire crator kit. what do you call a 450 cam since both 45955 DA and 45955 DB were used in 450 tractors and they didn't change horsepower rating on them when cams changed from left to right hand threads. Guess I'm going to have to get my degree wheel and dial indicator out and start checking cams. I,m willing to bet the 45955 DA and 45955 DB cams are the same except for the threads and nut. Not sure enough to bet a lot though. Have a good one.

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jhb

02-08-2007 05:02:23

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to D Slater, 02-07-2007 19:21:17

Is there a difference in your opinion between how well the various cams work in a pulling tractor and does it make a difference in the cubes of the engine?

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D Slater

02-08-2007 12:03:55

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to jhb, 02-08-2007 05:02:23

Never tested any on dyno,so I can't say which is the best. IH made there cams for working engines in a broad range of working conditions. If you are pulling in a different RPM or other changes There's people out there that can make or regrind a cam for more power. Unless IH printed there C264 SMTA and W6TA engine service manual wrong the revised cam valve timing started on 45955 DA 400 series engine camshafts. I find different cams in different engines so unless you know the tractors never been apart, its a guess until its out as to what cam it is.

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jhb

02-07-2007 14:43:50

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to jhb, 02-07-2007 05:58:30

Is the 400 grind the same as the 450 or the SM?

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D Slater

02-08-2007 19:59:51

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to jhb, 02-07-2007 14:43:50

Well if you look at the latest printing of parts book for a M,SM,SMTA,400 and 450 they will all show the same cam # 48196 DB. The reason for that is after IH sold out of previous cams the 48196 DB was sold as replacement cam for all the above. 48196 DB came in 450 tractors engine serial # 9861 and higher. Okay now if you find older parts books through the years they will show M and SM used cam # 48196 D. Then for all 400 and 450 up to engine serial # 9860 cam # 48196 DA was used. To make things more confusing is that the above numbers are not on most cams. The numbers I posted in other post are found on most IH cams. The D, DA and DB on cams match both sets of numbers. Some DA cams could have been put in late SMTA, but I can't prove that one way or other,but don't think they were. Some other information,this is from IH form GSS-11 C264 engine in SMTA and W6TA tractors dated 10-10-55. (Quoate)Replacing the production camshaft with 45955 DA 400 series engine camshaft will provide increased engine power due to revised valve timing. I would say back when those tractors were used a lot some dealers and farmers followed that advice and then later put in the cam that replaced 45955 DA or 48196 DA is the reason for so mutch confusion on what cams came in the engines.

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ChadS

02-07-2007 16:38:08

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to jhb, 02-07-2007 14:43:50

All the same grind SM-450 gas or LP. Late model 400-450's had left handed threads on the nut for live pumps,,,,, , early ones had the right hand threads,, came loose when they use a live hyd pump. Chad

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jhb

02-08-2007 04:59:53

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to ChadS, 02-07-2007 16:38:08

Chad, why then does everyone seem to want a 450 cam? Is there a difference between dwell and grind? Also, some people think a 504 grind on a M cam is good. Please help me understand. Thanks. Jim

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ChadS

02-08-2007 07:35:43

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to jhb, 02-08-2007 04:59:53

When they made the new cams, they mostly changed how the engine takes a breath. So most of the changes were done to the intake lobes. More lift, more duration. Low end torque is improved quite a bit! Just by a cam swap from the M to the SM cam was good for 4 more hp at 540, and about 15 hp more in the torque curve. (below 540)VS the old M cam. My M made a night and day difference by the swap,,, it will pull alot harder and not power out so easy. When they built the 450, it was a complete package that really made the difference,,, the head, flywheel and clutch, cam, intake, is a better design, the slightly heavier flywheel and clutch built up a bit more torque,, VS the old M. Chad

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02-08-2007 16:22:06

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to ChadS, 02-08-2007 07:35:43

How does a heavier flywheel and clutch "built up more torque", This has got to be good! FLywheels NEVER make any form of power on there own!

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ChadS

02-08-2007 16:45:05

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to LW, 02-08-2007 16:22:06

LW, did you use a 450 flywheel in project M? Ever weigh a 450 flywheel, and a M flywheel? Bout 10 lbs difference. Thats not including the bigger clutch and pressure plate. Heavier flywheels are harder to stop than a lighter one. Providing the engine is strong enough to keep it going. JD 2cyls have been putting bigger flywheels on em for years to get a little more grunt. If Project M has a M flywheel, you already know what the Hp is,, swap it out with the 450 set up and dyno the difference. Been there done that already. chad

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AW Puller

02-08-2007 18:47:11

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to ChadS, 02-08-2007 16:45:05

The laws of physics apply to everyone, even YOU!! A heavier flywheel does not make more horsepower. Energy can not be created or destroyed. A heavier flywheel can however store more energy due to having more mass, but that energy has to come from somewhere. A dyno may show more power if you crank it down real quick to spike it and let off of it, however if you pull the engine down with a steady pull, it should make no difference.

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randy hall

02-08-2007 19:34:44

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to AW Puller, 02-08-2007 18:47:11

i took twentyfive pounds off of the flywheel on our m with the large motor. it takes power to turn the flywheel and unless you are pulling a baler or a silo filler a heavier flywheel won't do you any good.

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jhb

02-08-2007 10:22:35

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to ChadS, 02-08-2007 07:35:43

Thanks Chad, that was very helpful. Jim

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jhb

02-09-2007 05:49:10

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Re: 450 Farmall cam in reply to jhb, 02-08-2007 10:22:35

Thanks. Many of the heavy hitters responded. I learned a lot. One of the best most technical discussions I have read on this site. Thanks. Jim

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