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Good bye to the D-Max

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burns

05-20-2002 04:46:43

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A few weeks ago I posted that I was no longer driving my Dodge and that I was now driving a GMC equipped with the Duramax/Allison combo. This week I am going back to the dealership to get my Dogde back.

I'm really disappointed in the overall truck. I suppose if you are just driving the truck around for pleasure, it would be the cats meow. But if you are WORKING the ol' girl, now that is another story. I was surprised how the rear end squatted down when I had our camper hooked on. I really needed the torsion bars for stability. I think the tailgate is half the weight of the dodge or ford. Locked the truck the other day and both interior latches on the doors fell off. Darn sun visor doesn't stay in place. I don't care what the manufacturers numbers are for torque/hp I'm more concerned when I throw the jack hammer for our bigger Kobelco in the bed I need the performance. It just doesn't have that low end torque that the Cummins 6 has. I don't mind a little bit of luxury but when the truck is labeled a HD, then give me a heavy duty truck and not a car wanna be..

I realize this is only my opinion, I'm sure there are folks that would argue just the other way. Since we need some form of transporting our tractors here to there, I thought I would drop a post regarding what I found.

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JDGnut

05-21-2002 11:59:32

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Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to burns, 05-20-2002 04:46:43

Burns.. And I thought U were losing it.. Talking about pulling Farmall's, and then trading your Cummins for D-Max.. I guess there is some light there some where... I've always been a Chevy person.. but I needed a truck to get good fuel milage empty (150miles to work and back, everyday) and hual a tractor or two on the weekends.. I do think that the chevy is a nicer truck.. but I bought the Cummins/Dodge for the engine.. I just hope the Truck lasts half as long as the engine.. (9 months and already 40,000miles.) Only really complaint I have is that most of the Dodge dealer have the worst service deptments..

I sure wish GM would have continued with the Deere project of using a Deere engine, but the 6.8L engine was just too heavy for GM weight limit.. (There is actually one or more GM running around with 6.8L Deere engine.. I know one has over 225,000 miles on it.) It's too bad, lots of truck would have been sold, just for the engine.. (Deere already has a 6.8 High Presure Common Rail 4Valve engine, and it could have been ready in time for the Chevy, would have been a great PowerPlant.) I waited for the D-max to come out hoping it would not be a V8 Design... I'll stick to the torque of my I6 Cummins... (add a little black box, and I'll have the performace of a gasser... (that will lead to bigger injectors, bigger turbo, clutch, exhaust, yaad, yaad...(Horsepower Junkie..) Ok.. I'm done rambling now.. ) Good choice on the trucks.. (I have had a few friends do the same..)
JDGnut

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burns

05-21-2002 12:58:30

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Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to JDGnut, 05-21-2002 11:59:32

Heck, I lost it a long time ago. I will agree with you regarding the Chevy being more comfortable. I particularly like the bucket seats.

How do you feel about the K&N air filter. I installed it a long time ago. I check for dust/dirt post filter and it seems to be working well. With the Powermax 2 box, I notice a big difference running with and without the K&N filter.Remove that silencer ring in the turbo and add the filter....

WWWWIIIII IIIIEEEEE EEEEE ESSSSS SSS.

OOOO Yeah..... .Real trucks rattle

See I have lost it. LOL

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JDGnut

05-22-2002 10:45:25

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Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to burns, 05-21-2002 12:58:30

No I guess U haven't lost it.. its just a Humminnn.. Cummminsss thing.. Gasser owners wouldn't understand.. I'm kind of up in the air about the K&N on the Cummins.. Dad has had one on his for the last 50,000 miles (165,000 on the truck) and a friend for 60,000 miles (155,000) I had a new stock filter for mine so I have not put a K&N in the stock box.. I do have a K&N that replaces the stock box, attaches to the tube. I have only used it a few times.. it does get a little warm close to the turbo.. I will probably buy a K&N for the stock box and add the oily foam piece from the stock filter, and just check it from time to time. ( I don't usually drive on dusty roads so it sould not be much of a problem..)
I haven't added a Box yet to the truck.. there will be an Edge Comp box added in the next few months, the guages are already in.. (fuel psi is a little low so I need to get that checked out first.. ) All and all the Cummins is the way to go... later
JDGnut

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Dr. Evil

05-25-2002 17:50:02

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to JDGnut, 05-22-2002 10:45:25

You Guys and Your Cummins.... You KNOW Ford owns Cummins right?... just kidding... On the K&N... I ran one for 70,000 mi. on My '96 PSD...Oil analysis always came back with silicon in the 5-6 PPM range. I switched back to the OEM pleated paper element and with the same oil change interval the silicon was ZERO and ONE. Silicon is DIRT... 6 PPM in 3000 miles may not be bad...compared to the guys running 5000 mi. on conventional oil or extended drains on synthetic but I have a cleaned & oiled OEM replacement K&N I'll give to someone if They pay postage! When I hold it up to the light I see thousands of Points of Light! I'll NEVER run a K&N again. I don't need the possiblity of an extra 10 HP as bad as I need the extra 100,000 miles of engine life.

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Jonathan

05-20-2002 13:38:10

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Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to burns, 05-20-2002 04:46:43

I can't afford and don't want a new truck. I stick with one I can fix. My 92 with a gas with 280,000 and my 82 with the old 6.2 diesel are fine. My 6.2 has over 300,000 miles and I have put on 1 injector pump and a couple sets of glow plugs. I can live with the low torque. Half of YOU are going over the GVW of your trucks anyway. What do expect?? If you want power get you a KW or a peterbuilt. A 2500 pick up is over GVW with a goose neck trailor without a tractor.

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Over the GVW????

05-20-2002 13:50:41

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Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Jonathan, 05-20-2002 13:38:10

I have always figured around 15-20% of the trailor GVW to placed in the bed of a trailer. Your only looking at 1,500 - 2,000 pounds in the bed. Certainly not what I would consider over the limit on a gooseneck? Maybe I am missing something?

Burns

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Jack

05-20-2002 14:43:05

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Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Over the GVW????, 05-20-2002 13:50:41

Are you gonna be able to trade back?Just wonderin.I know of two 1 ton Duramaxes in this area that the owners really love.One guy said that that was the most power he had ever seen in a stock truck.And the other guy loggs for a living and he uses his every day and loves it.If I could pay 1100.00 bucks a month on one I would try to love it too.Later Burns and all,Jack(TN).

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burns

05-20-2002 16:08:21

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Jack, 05-20-2002 14:43:05

I can assure you that my personal wallet won't handle the payment either. Like other family owned business', rather buy equipment than give Uncle Sam the $$$. Let's face it time is money and you can't make any money broken down along side the road. Glad to here your buddies are pleased with their purchase.

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farmall flogger

05-20-2002 09:22:50

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Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to burns, 05-20-2002 04:46:43

Couldn't interest you in a new POWERSTROKE burns? It could really take that G for a ride.

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Jim (Mi)

05-20-2002 10:34:00

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Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to farmall flogger, 05-20-2002 09:22:50

They are not that bad. But I do have concerns buying a engine that the Company is not sold on. If they were that good, they would not use Cummins in their larger application trucks. The only reason they do not use the Cummins along with Chevy is because the small engine contract with Dodge. And believe me Dodge is not planning on releasing them any time soon.

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Dr. Evil

05-25-2002 18:05:07

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Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Jim (Mi), 05-20-2002 10:34:00

Ford uses the little Cummins because Navistar won't sell them the DT-466E and DT-530. But after Ford buys Navistar that will change. Ford & Navistar have already formed a partnership, Blue Diamond Motors or ??? to build medium duty trucks. When Ford buys Navistar outright look for Ford to be back in the medium & Heavy truck market place again!

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What a powerpuke.......nt

05-20-2002 10:23:35

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Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to farmall flogger, 05-20-2002 09:22:50

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Jim (Mi)

05-20-2002 09:09:18

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Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to burns, 05-20-2002 04:46:43

Just picked up my new Dodge Last tuesday. Man are they great. Originally I picked up the 360, but returned it for the 4.7L. Bad decision, but am still very happy. If you can hold out till late next year. You will be able to get the new body style and new Cummings. Also will get the new trans. It is much better. Sorry to hear about the Chevy. I design for them, and they cannot compare to a dodge. They could not come within $115/month payments on a lease with apples to apples truck. I was very dissappointed with them.

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Dodge Rules

05-20-2002 07:29:11

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Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to burns, 05-20-2002 04:46:43

I bet the salesman was laughing all the way to the bank once he got your Dodge for re-sale. My '99 Dodge 2500 Cummins dsl hasn't yet pulled my tractor, but when "he" has pulled a load it's been like having nothing behind "him". Dodge may be a little noisy, but they definitely out shine the others. DODGE Rules ..... .....
Gumby

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To Dodge rules and Greg

05-20-2002 08:55:23

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Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Dodge Rules, 05-20-2002 07:29:11

DR, my dad is going to take the D-max. Since his open heart, he is doesn't care to shift his 6 speed cummins. Going to swap his Dodge for my old one. Really isn't going to cost us anything except for a few bucks in transfering your normal expenses.

Greg I don't know what your definition of decent gas mileage is but my brother had the 6000 series engine and wow was it thirsty for gas. 15 was the best compared to my normal 21. I drive about 40k mile a year. He was spending almost $1000 more a year in gas compared to the diesel. Dodges automatics have improved but certaily have a long way to go.

Burns

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Greg AZ

05-21-2002 09:42:08

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Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to To Dodge rules and Greg, 05-20-2002 08:55:23

Burns.....My friend reports 11-13 mpg with his 494 gasser pulling his car trailer and two large Buicks. Total weight of cars and trailer is approx 18000 pounds. He uses a fifth wheel setup. Running empty, he reports as much as 15 mpg, again not bad for a big block. I have another friend who just drove his Dodge 1500 short bed, two wheel drive with 318 to Missouri from AZ and averaged just a little over 10 mpg, running empty and with a fiberglas bed cover!!! And it is a 2002 model. The trans in the thing is horrible, in that it shifts to a really low gear when it comes out of OD on hills. RPM's go from 1800 or so to 3500 or so, even in cruise control mode. I feel, for my needs, that if I were to buy a new HD truck for hauling my cars and other stuff, I would take a hard look at the General's big V-8! I was considering a Dodge until my friend bought his. Now no way. A diesel is out of the question due to cost and noise. I can feed a big block for years with the money it would cost to buy a Cummins. And I can stay away from Chrysler. In your calculations, you only considered fuel costs, not the initial difference in purchase price, gas to diesel, and then factor fuel costs. If you get the ponies, you gotta feed 'em!! I will probably keep my '73 Chevy big block and bank the money. Just my two cents. All the best..... ...Greg

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Jim (Mi)

05-21-2002 10:21:45

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Greg AZ, 05-21-2002 09:42:08

Greg you are right about 318's being gas hogs. I have owned many 'o' that motor. All loved gas. Like 350 though in reliability. They have a new trans out for their new models. They had the best ever in the 727 torqueflight. Only problem is they used it the next 40 years. The 360 still uses the old style trans. The new 4.7 has a 5 speed auto. They are coming out next year with the new 5.6L v-8. It will produce 305 HP. Along with the new Cummings, they will both be touting the new trans. I have had mine a few days now. My friend is the testing engineer on them. I was complaining because when I shifted it, their is zero lung forward, and no idle decrease to tell you are in gear. He laughed and said I am in the 1% margin. They have spent much hours and $$$$ designing that thing to be so smooth. My uncle has the HD 8.1L with Allison teans. A complete beast. Amazing how loud the trans pump is on that thing. But doing an apples to apples comparison, the beast will be the v-10 Dodge. It will walk all over the 8.1L. It is much slower out of the gate, but will tow anything you can put behind it. It runs a few mpg better than the 8.1L, but it works alot less under stressful loads.

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Greg AZ

05-22-2002 07:38:18

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Jim (Mi), 05-21-2002 10:21:45

My stepdad had a '96 Dodge V-10 that he pullled his Airstream trailer with. The trans went out on the Alaskan highway in Canada, 300 miles from nowhere with 10,000 miles on it. Number 3 piston and rod found daylight twice in less than 40,000 miles. He had to have the composite (plastic) intake manifold replaced in AZ during that time. Of course he experienced the normal Dodge feature of constant brake problems. He got stuck on a hill in Iowa and had to be pulled over the hill by a Jeep Wrangler! He traded it for a 2000 Ford Super Duty with a Triton V-8. The Ford, though no powerhouse will outpull the Dodge V-10 and is still going with no trouble. Your statement that a V-10 will outpull the General's big V-8 is hard to believe, considering the experience that I have had or seen. The person with a whine in the pump on his Allison should have it investigated. Allison transmissions have been used for decades in applications far heavier duty than pickup trucks. The General did good when he introduced Allison transmissions to the truck world. My two cents. All the best..... Greg

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Jim (Mi)

05-22-2002 10:18:04

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Greg AZ, 05-22-2002 07:38:18

WOW, do not blame him for taking it back. gez I am suprised a triton will outpull the v-10. Their 5.4 is only 260hp@350lbs of torque. Even their 6.8 v-10 is only 310hp@425lbs of torque. The v-10 Dodge is 310hp@450lbs of torque. The 8.1L Produces three fold, depending on the vehicle. In their low applications it produces 210hp@325 lbs of torque. In their mid range applications it produces 270hp@400 lbs of torque. And in their high end application it produces 340hp@455lbs of torque. The new Dodge v-10 is I believe (not 100% on this) 335hp@505lbs of torque. I also know they ae coming out with a 8.3L v-10 with over 500 ponies in a truck. I was in Pontiac last week at the truck center (Where GM designes and engineers their trucks) the pump noise is common. That is the downfall to having the beast. The composite intakes are a great and wonderful thing. I am really surprised to hear anyone have a problem with one yet. Kinda funny though my brother-in-law is the engineer for those systems on Chrysler, I will have to show him that. We are switching all vehicles to composite also. It really is a great thing. All molded-no burrs in the metal castings to restrict air/fuel mixture. Air/fuel mixture has less tendence to be in vaccuum adhering to the blends on cast steel. A little more sensitive to weather, but it really sells itself.

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Dr. Evil

05-25-2002 17:59:22

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Jim (Mi), 05-22-2002 10:18:04

I can't be positive about GM & Chrysler but ALL Ford upper intake manifolds only flow air. The fuel isn't injected till just before the intake port in the cyl. head in the lower intake manifold. The air-fuel separation is of NO concern in them.

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Greg AZ

05-25-2002 08:29:51

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Jim (Mi), 05-22-2002 10:18:04

Jim.....Thanks for your comments concerning the new Dodge engines. I have heard and read all the claims, i.e horsepower and torque ratings and find most of it to be B.S.! What all the fuss boils down to is this: application and gearing. The major problem I see with Dodge trucks is their automatic transmissions. Really horrible units!! The Allison whine everybody talks about has been a feature of that trans since day one. Kinda like the old Slim Jim HydraMatic. But what a tough transmission. Well proven in millions of heavy duty applications. Also explain how a V-10 with similiar displacement to a V-8 will pull more. Larger pistons and longer stroke of the V-8 makes more torque. That is simple physics. Let the Dodge ad boys pen whatever torque and horsepower rating they like and give me the General's big block. 'Nuff said. Good luck and all the best..... ..Greg

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Sam

05-22-2002 18:55:23

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Jim (Mi), 05-22-2002 10:18:04

I know this isn't a truck thing, but about the composite intake manifold. I just had this problem on a 97 t-bird about 6 weeks ago. Blowing coolant everywhere all of a sudden on a trip to NC. Not counting the tow bill, repair was a little over $1000. Give me cast aluminum anyday.

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missery

05-20-2002 18:04:03

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Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to To Dodge rules and Greg, 05-20-2002 08:55:23

i think i would rather stick with the gas power as well.would rather spend a little extra in fuel than a lot more in repair bills,besides,isn't diesel more expencive per gal than gas? it is in my area. Dave.

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burns

05-21-2002 05:33:42

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to missery, 05-20-2002 18:04:03

I buy fuel at the truck stops to get the better price. It is comparable to gas at a local pump station. I put almost 42,000 on my truck last year (pretty bad when I live 2 miles from my regular full time job). I average around 20 mpg with my Cummins and my brother averaged 15 with his Chevy gaser. That figures 2100 gallons of diesel fuel or $2835 for the year and 2800 gallons of gas or $3780 for the year. Savings of $945 per year. I would estimate is cost me around $100 more to operate the diesel versus the gas per year (fuel filter/extra oil). Yeah, I'll agree that a gas engine has the power to pull the same load as a diesel but it has to work much harder.

Good discussion, nice change from the color wars

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08-07-2005 13:25:20

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to burns, 05-21-2002 05:33:42

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G-MAN

05-20-2002 18:41:42

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to missery, 05-20-2002 18:04:03

I am not going to say your opinion is wrong, because it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, even with diesel being more expensive per gallon, you will probably spend less on diesel in the long run, because diesel engines produce more power per gallon of fuel - diesel has more energy per gallon than gasoline. Diesels also tend to need fewer repairs than gas engines, simply because they are built better and generally run at much lower speeds. First overhaul on a Cummins in a Dodge truck (and I have yet to see one overhauled, even though I know of some with in excess of 400,000 miles), usually consists of new bearing, a valve job and a honing of the cylinders with new rings - which can be done for the same or less money than overhauling a gas burner - according to a friend of mine that works for a Cummins distributor. Secondly, diesel engines do away with one complete system that gasoline burners absolutely must have - the ignition system. The newer electronic ignition systems are very good - but they still fail at a fairly good rate, due to the number of parts - cap, rotor, wires, coils, plugs, modules etc. I know from experience that diesel fuel injection system repairs can be pricey, but once again, with proper maintenance and service, these repairs are rarely needed - that's why you see over-the-road trucks running with over 1,000,000 miles on them and no major repairs, and tractors with 10,000 hours doing the same thing. 10,000 hours on a gasoline engine running an average of 35 mph would be 350,000 miles. I know there are gasoline engines with that kind of mileage still running well, but they are the exception far more often than the rule. The real problem is that I don't see any way to ever replace diesel fuel - so I don't know what will happen when the tree-huggers take over. Building an electric car to move 4 people down the interstate will be a walk in the park compared to building an electric truck to haul 80,000 lbs down the same road, or an electric tractor to pull a 60 foot field cultivator. Just my two cents.

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JDGnut

05-22-2002 11:06:51

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to G-MAN, 05-20-2002 18:41:42

G-Man.. I have a friend that has had to rebuild his Cummins in is Dodge... Only 250,000 miles on it.... BUT I will have to add that it was not really the engine's fault... maybe a little to do with the tiwn turbo's, Custom pump, Custom torque plate, Injectors, or the Propane shooting there.. One of the turbo's broke and piece of the shaft went through the engine.. It really didn't hurt it other than a few big marks on the pistons and minor marks in the walls.. But he is after BIG Hp numbers.. He was over 500HP on the dyno we'll see what he puts out with the new engine... Did I mention that he is pushing this through and Automatic... JDGnut

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Jim (Mi)

05-21-2002 06:29:55

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to G-MAN, 05-20-2002 18:41:42

Great point. But elec tech is not that far off. Elec powers trains, so a semi is not that far of a stretch. The problem we are running into is two fold. One being big oil, and the other being battery technology. I was involved on the elec hybrid for GM about three years ago. Fun project.

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G-MAN

05-21-2002 11:40:04

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Jim (Mi), 05-21-2002 06:29:55

I know there are purely electric trains and there have been for years, but aren't most of them used for passenger service, rather than freight? Just like in the car scenario I used, there's a huge difference in moving 15 fairly lightweight passenger cars and 100 fully-loaded freight cars, not to mention the extensive electrification system that would be required to run all trains off of electricity. So is your idea than one day over the road trucks will be diesel-electric, or purely electric? I just can't imagine the raw electrical power that would be required to move 80,000 lbs of weight down the highway for 12 hours at a time. I'm sure it is possible, but will it ever be cost-effective enough for normal use? Maybe some sort of hybrid truck, that uses it's diesel engine to get up to speed, and then electric power to maintain it until more power is needed. Are any of the car companies experimenting with hybrids using diesel engines? I would think that would be the ultimate, given diesels reliability and efficiency. Electronic fuel delivery and modern engine design are producing diesels that run cleaner and produce more power per gallon than ever before. This is a very interesting field of study, it makes me wish I would have gone into an engineering field rather than being a plain old technician.

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Jim (Mi)

05-21-2002 12:06:07

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to G-MAN, 05-21-2002 11:40:04

That is what the hybrids was. A small diesel was used to regenerate the batts. Same as your loco's. Now getting one downsized to fit on the streets in a semi is another story. They can get the motors, but the weight and cost efficient batteries are the problems. Also they do not take well to cold weather. Funny everyone cries for battery power cars because they pollute less according to them. But they have no idea how much pollutents are with a decomposing battery in a land fill.

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G-MAN

05-21-2002 12:49:50

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Jim (Mi), 05-21-2002 12:06:07

I hear you on the decomposing battery thing - few things are more toxic than the various chemicals in a lead-acid battery. The other funny thing is how people think battery-powered cars are so great because they thing electricity just appears out of nothing. They don't realize that in most cases (except for hydroelectric and nuclear plants, which have their own problems), the electricity their cute little cars use is produced by the burning of fossil fuels anyway. The same tree-huggers that don't want anything to pollute their environment stage their protests with signs made of paper, drive to the protests in their cars, and everything else they own is brought by truck - makes a lot of sense. The funniest thing I ever saw was a picture of one of those nuts living in a tree to keep if from being cut down, and here she is living on a platform made of .....you guessed it, wood. What a bunch of morons. Anyway, I'm getting way off the tractor pulling subject here, lol. Email me if you want to continue this interesting conversation. I'm assuming you have an engineering background, and I'm always ready to learn new things.

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Greg AZ

05-20-2002 08:14:36

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Re: Re: Good bye to the D-Max in reply to Dodge Rules, 05-20-2002 07:29:11

I have a friend who traded his '99 Dodge Rattler 1-ton in on a new GMC 2500 HD with the General's 494 gas V-8 and Allison trans. He drove a D-Max and decided the gas engine would outpull it. He loves it! It will outpull the Cummins and gets decent gas mileage (for a big V-8). His wife wouldn't drive or even ride in the Cummins due to the noise and smell. Apparently, she has decided that the GMC is "her" truck and lets him use it to pull his cars!! His old Dodge had lots of brake problems, the trans went out twice, and the body rattled almost as bad as the engine. The A/C clutch wanted to pack up, and in AZ, that is a real bummer. Admittedly, the Cummins is probably better for hauling jack hammers, but for all around use, partially for pleasure driving, the General's big V-8 rules!! Long live the big block!! All the best..... ..Greg

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