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Tractor Pulling Discussion Forum

Cast Iron Pistons VS. Aluminum Pistons

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Lamont

02-02-2008 08:33:36




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Pros and Cons of using these in a pulling engine - Now Open for discussion. Thanks for any and all ideas and thoughts.




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ChadS

02-05-2008 08:50:07




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 Re: Cast Iron Pistons VS. Aluminum Pistons in reply to Lamont, 02-02-2008 08:33:36  
Pre combustion chamber, next project for this design is a small bore, long stroke 13 to 1, 4 cyl. We ran flat tops in it before,, seen a drop in cyl pressure,,, in smaller stroke engines, but with the same CI, one engine at 11 to 1 and 225 psi of cyl pressure, made 70 hp. The other engine at the same CI, only with the dished piston, made 68 hp. With only 200 psi, and on pump gas. The 11 to 1 engine ran on E 85/pump gas mix. had to!! would preignite and wouldnt shut off!!
the 13 to 1 engine, the old comparison, was a 14.2 to 1 set up, with flat tops, on a 50/50 mix, e85. This time around, the pistons have a dish/dome design,,, Im hoping the design acts as a shovel, and a ramp to really get the E 85 mixed up more inside the cyl and the chamber to get a more complete burn in the cyl. dish ramp so it chruns the air as the piston breathes in,, then a dome shovel when it spits it out and ramp the air towards the valves. This desgin,, is over 40 year old technology when I come to think about it,,, ChadS

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buickanddeere

02-04-2008 15:23:50




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 Re: Cast Iron Pistons VS. Aluminum Pistons in reply to Lamont, 02-02-2008 08:33:36  
If there is no quench area where the piston approaches to 40 thou of less from the cylinder head. Detonation resistance is reduced.
It takes that squirt of air/fuel mixture being rapidly squeezed from that quench area into the rest of the combustion chamber. To induce swirl and turbulance which reduces the tendedncy for detonation to occur.
Chad's trick 70 has a wedge combustion chamber that works almost like a pre-combustion chamber on a indirect ignition diesel. The sparkplug is where the indirect injection diesel's injector would be. Whatever is going on, it works well in this application.

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ChadS

02-04-2008 09:15:08




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 Re: Cast Iron Pistons VS. Aluminum Pistons in reply to Lamont, 02-02-2008 08:33:36  
There is alot that can be done to help spark knock. I wouldnt run a flat top piston in a 2 cyl JD, under high cyl pressure. I would run a dished piston in one. Have the pistons go as high in the block as the plugs will let em go, if the pistons pass the plug and there is meat on the piston heads,, cut a path right to the center of the piston, and this is where the dish needs to be,, in the center like a diesil,,, now depending on how much cyl pressure you have, deterimines how deep the dish needs to be,, but think about this,,,

Flat top pistons in a 2 cyl, huge 5 gallon buckets, and the shock waves or what,, soundwaves,, so much of an area to ignite,, the explosion is so radical,,, that from the shock from the ign, can blow a piston sideways in the bore,, just a little, but can take the side play out real quick,,,,
Take a dished piston, with a path cut to lead the spark to the center,,, this is a smaller, more concentrated area,, and when it fires,,, its on the center of the piston, not out on the sides, or where ever the pulse goes upon IGN. it would be a higher concentrated explosion,, that goes from the center of the bore and outward to the sides, instead of comming from the outside of the cyl, to the inside of the bore. Did this to a JD 70,,, never would have thought it would have done what it did. But that was our experiment end result was a high compression engine, that runs on 93 octane pump gas and dont preignite.
Ive always used a heavy duty aluminum piston, the piston head has to be thicker to keep the cyl temps and pressure from burning the tops off. So you dont want a real thin headed piston under high cyl pressures. Best time spent os keeping a good center to center distance on the rods,, longer, the better,, for low rpm torque in low rpm engines. ChadS ChadS3@hotmail.com

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super a rx7 guy

02-04-2008 11:34:05




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 Re: Cast Iron Pistons VS. Aluminum Pistons in reply to ChadS, 02-04-2008 09:15:08  
what kind of cranking pressures do you guys most of the time run in the large bore JD tractors? our A has a 6.125" bore and we have around 210, and can't run anything but 110. Play with the timing and the carb on the dyno, and it don't make alot of difference, where it runs the best, you get some spark knock. car engine builders run longest rods they can usually, but low RPM tractor engine sometimes is better to have a shorter rod if you are going to have high cyl. pressures. generally speaking, a longer rod is better, but this isn't always the case at low rpm's.

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supera rx7 guy

02-03-2008 21:55:08




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 Re: Cast Iron Pistons VS. Aluminum Pistons in reply to Lamont, 02-02-2008 08:33:36  
cast iron pistons reduce power. it TAKES energy to "switch" directions of travel. the lighter the piston, the better, the only exception is if you get so light, you "fire" a hole in the top of it. most Car high performance pistons give a hp rating based on pressures and rpm's....if you have a low compression engine, the lightest possible, if you have an engine pushed to the edge, you want a heavier piston, top fuel cars run quite a heavy forged aluminum alloy piston. it has a special heat coating on it that makes them green in color.....i learned most of this stuff from experience and a high performance engines class in college.

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buickanddeere

02-03-2008 06:11:44




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 Re: Cast Iron Pistons VS. Aluminum Pistons in reply to Lamont, 02-02-2008 08:33:36  
I would encourage everyone that pulls in the 3250# up to about 4500# to run the heaviest piston they can find. If needed have someone pour some lead in any nook and cranny that can hold it just to give you a little more weight. Heavier pistons do not increase torque or HP. A heavier flywheel will smooth the engines output pulses.



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ChadS

02-03-2008 06:56:30




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 Re: Cast Iron Pistons VS. Aluminum Pistons in reply to buickanddeere, 02-03-2008 06:11:44  
Even what most do to a puller,, engine wise,, most stock rod engines with clearence work, the piston/rod assembly is lighter than stock. On a H with a 5.5 stroker,, (exapmle) we lighten up the rods by almost 2 lbs,,,, just by doing the clearence work. the pistons are already lighter than stock,,,, kinda the same scenario for everybody,,,,

heavy pistons,,,heavy rods,,, does it make HP or torque??? not by itself,,, but my opinion is,, that if you add higher cyl pressure to help momentumn, on the power stroke,,, I can see it helping,, Im not saying a 25 hp gain,, no,,, but maybe good for a few extra ft lbs of torque. Something has to compliment a change,,, and with cyl pressure at 100 spi, for example,, put in an assemble that is 1 lb heavier than what you got and your not goin to see anything gained,,,, might even see a loss,,,, but what happens if you bump the cyl pressure up to 150, or 200 psi?? (if you can run it) Could it help the heavy parts work better? Chad

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jd b puller

02-02-2008 22:46:54




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 Re: Cast Iron Pistons VS. Aluminum Pistons in reply to Disturbed, 02-02-2008 08:33:36  
I would encourage everyone that pulls in the 3250# up to about 4500# to run the heaviest piston they can find. If needed have someone pour some lead in any nook and cranny that can hold it just to give you a little more weight.
I'll run the lightweight aluminum ones in my tractor.

Hoss, if you're fighting spark knock you're doing something wrong. Get rid of the bandaids and make it run right.

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buickanddeere

02-02-2008 20:14:50




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 Re: Cast Iron Pistons VS. Aluminum Pistons in reply to Lamont, 02-02-2008 08:33:36  
Aluminum pistons reduce engine stress by being lighter. Aluminum conducts heat faster than cast iron. A slight loss in thermal efficiency. Which can be made up by being able to run a wee bit bit more compression without detonation due running cooler.



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Hoss in Maine

02-02-2008 17:43:46




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 Re: Cast Iron Pistons VS. Aluminum Pistons in reply to Lamont, 02-02-2008 08:33:36  
I would think because of spark knock and forces involved the cast ones would be best.But then again the high hp engines use al.pistons in drag engs and your car.Think Ill keep the cast ones in my JD. Later Hoss



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