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Low Oil Pressure

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Jim McKinney

08-03-2003 11:37:59

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My Allis Chalmers model CA has low oil pressure. Cold its runs at the very low end of normal then after warming up it drops below the normal range. Runs good otherwise. Put a listening rod on the oil pan and believe the mains are rattling a bit. Dont want to spend the time or money rebuilding complete engine. Was thinking about just replacing main bearings. Has anyone out there ever done this and did it help? Thanks Jim.

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Bob D. (La)

08-04-2003 18:50:27

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Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Jim McKinney, 08-03-2003 11:37:59

Jim, If you used a NAPA or Wix filter, do not run the tractor again until you replace the filter with one of the proper type. Purolator L30007 is another choice and is the proper type for your AC.Good Luck. Bob D. (La)

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Jim McKinney

08-05-2003 05:07:43

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Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Bob D. (La), 08-04-2003 18:50:27

Thanks Bob, I ordered an AC-C412 yesterday and should have it sometime today. Im told they are the correct design. Wont use the tractor agasin till I get the right filter. But I did use the tractor for about 2 hours before I realized there was an oil pressure problem. Hoping theres no permanent damage.

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allan b.

08-03-2003 21:04:37

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Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Jim McKinney, 08-03-2003 11:37:59

i also have a question, other than normal, what should the normal pressure be in the numerical sence. i run 40 at cool and when running on a 95 degree day it idles at 20-25 and tops at 30. this is on my 9n ford. it runs and starts fantasticly. also i bought a fram filter which had a rubber nipple on bottom of filter, there was non on old filter , so i took it off new filter. i found out that it was impossible to get the new filter on with the nipple on because of height problems. is this cool. everthing is working fine.

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davidval

08-04-2003 03:10:06

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Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to allan b., 08-03-2003 21:04:37

the engine oil has a few jobs in the engine.
for lubrication, as long as there is pressure in the bearings, there is lubrication. but oil also have to pass through the filter and oil lines(in full flow systems), cool the internal parts of the engine. excess oil is splashed from the bearings to cool pistons and cylinders.
if pressure is too low, there will not be enough oil for cooling. if pressure is too high you can get into exccessive oil burning.
oil pressure is determined by pump capacity, bearing clearances and regulating valve setting. in many engines the valve sets pressure at high rpm while pump and bearings at low rpm. if the condition of the pump and the bearings deteriorates, pressure at lower rpm may drop enough to cause damage. cooling, when there is no oil cooler, is done by heat discipation in the crankcase.
modern engines, especially turbocharged, have higher capacity oil pumps with turbocharger lube, piston cooling nozzles and oil coolers they also operate at higher pressures (at the 50 psi zone) and have smaller tolerances at the bearings.
david

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Dave

08-03-2003 19:54:26

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Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Jim McKinney, 08-03-2003 11:37:59

Have you also tested the gauge? I have had similar problems with filters causing a few pound variance. If your gauge is allready reading low it would show way low with any drop. Normally little to no oil presure will show very quickly by knocking or seizing. Sounds like you have at least a little more pressure than is showing on your gauge. Good luck.

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allan b.

08-03-2003 20:41:57

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Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Dave, 08-03-2003 19:54:26

i also was getting a low oil, but engine was running fine. i cleaned the oil pressure tube, and all the oil tubes , the one i found clogged was the one from the filter to the pressure gauge. it was not on a tractor, but the same principle. their is alot of dirt at or around the bottom of a oil filter, and it tends to collect in the tubes , hope this helps, i always go with the cheapest things first. you may have to get new oil lines if you cant blow out all the dirt. hope this might help.

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Jim McKinney

08-04-2003 05:29:49

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Re: Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to allan b., 08-03-2003 20:41:57

Thanks Allen for the tips. Iv checked and cleaned al the external oil lines and filter body but no change in pressure. My next step was to remove the oil pan and see if I could either replace the bearings, rebuild the pump, clean the pickup tube, ect. Thats when I heard about the new=style filter possibly being the culpret. Ill replace that first before I do anything else. Jim.

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allan b.

08-05-2003 18:54:10

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Jim McKinney, 08-04-2003 05:29:49

seems like you know what your doing, arent these forums great. thanks everyone for yourin-put, it all helps. what a great bunch of people. thank you for your help in the past and future.

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wdTom

08-03-2003 17:24:45

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Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Jim McKinney, 08-03-2003 11:37:59

Well not to say your oil pressure problem isn't from the new filters. However these engines will run with little or no pressure. You can have no reading on the gauge, but still have flow of oil to the bearings. As a kid, the farm where I worked had a B with this situation. Showed a bit of pressure on startup, but when working it hard it would drop to nothing or nearly nothing, certainly far out of the "normal" range. And this tractor did a LOT of work, a good part of it hard work. Ran for years this way. Had the same situation in a flat head ford V-8 we had in one of the farm trucks, no pressure when it warmed up. That one developed a rod knock after a while, but never stopped running, finally it got an overhaul, as did the B for that matter, but for other reasons, not the oil pressure.

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Jim McKinney

08-03-2003 18:51:06

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Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to wdTom, 08-03-2003 17:24:45

Tom, Thanks for the reply. I agree with that. This tractor has had low oil pressure since Iv owned it almost 4 years now. I never worried about it until recently when the pressure dropped from the bottom of the normal range to almost zero. Iv changed oil and filter a few times before and never had any change in oil pressure so when it happened this time I didnt put 2 and 2 together. But after reading Rods reply about the different filter designs it made sense to me. If I can get the pressure back to where it was by changing back to the old style filter Im done. Thanks again for the reply, Jim.

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Rod (NH)

08-03-2003 12:49:39

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Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Jim McKinney, 08-03-2003 11:37:59

Hi Jim,

Have you checked your oil filter? See my own experience with my AC-B. The newer NAPA (WIX) and even some of those from AGCO earlier this year would cause low oil pressure problems.

Rod

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Jim McKinney

08-03-2003 16:07:55

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Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Rod (NH), 08-03-2003 12:49:39

Rod; Thanks for the info, very interesting. I too noticed the drop in oil pressure just after changing the oil and filter. I had a WIX 51101 and replaced it with the same. I did notice the difference in the design but never gave it a second thought. When the pressure wasent what it used to be Id figured that Id used the wrong weight oil(20-50). So I drained it and refilled with 5-30. It didnt help. Thats when I began suspecting the main bearings. But you;ve convinced me that the problem probably is with the new filter. Iv already pitched the old filter so Im gonna have try to find another new(old style) filter to replace it with. Appreciate the help your analysis and pictures were a great help. Jim

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Rod (NH)

08-03-2003 19:39:12

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Re: Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Jim McKinney, 08-03-2003 16:07:55

Jim,

If you can't find an older style NAPA-1101 or WIX-51101 on the shelf somewhere, try AC-C412. That's AC as in AC Sparkplug. I used to use the C412 years ago but began to have trouble finding them locally and switched to the NAPA-1101. FRAM-C159 is also a direct replacement and is the "old style", so I am told. I am also of the understanding that the filters you get from AGCO (Allis #840912) are now the correct "old style" after AGCO got the problem squared away with their supplier. I am told AGCO is offering free replacements for the "new style" ones they unknowingly sold previously.

I am going to be searching the local market for AC-C412 or FRAM-C159 before my next filter change. I will visually verify the "old style" before purchase. AGCO doesn't have a local source for me so if I can't get anything locally, I may wind up getting some from them via mail. At least they know the problem and presumably have it resolved.

There has been a lot of chatter and complaints about the NAPA filter causing low oil pressure in the AC vintage tractor community over the last several months. That is what caused me to look into it myself...I needed to verify the claims/concerns to my own satisfaction. Lots of posts on this subject on the "other board" that is dedicated to AC tractors. I would link you to it here but this site will not let me do that due to sales competition. You may already know how to get there anyway. If you do, just do a search on "oil pressure" or "NAPA" or "oil filter". You'll find plenty or reading on the issue.

Good luck.

Rod

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Jim McKinney

08-08-2003 16:26:49

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Rod (NH), 08-03-2003 19:39:12

Rod, Iv replaced my filter with an Ac C412 and my problem went away. I now have my normal oil pressure back and it holds steady after warming up. Engine also runs quieter like it used to. Without your help I would have pulled the pan and started replacing bearings and who knows what else. Thanks Jim.

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Jim

08-04-2003 05:18:55

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Rod (NH), 08-03-2003 19:39:12

Rod, thanks for the info on brandname and numbers. This is a small town and sources are limited here. Will take your list with me today and see what I can find, may have to order and wait but then I wont know what design Im getting till it gets here. Dont have an AGCO here either will check online and that might be the best way to go. Prior to this oil and filter change even with low oil pressure I never heard any engine noises. Now Im sure I can hear the bearings. Also with the old filter, pressure though low would come up on the guage immediately. Now with the new filter it takes up to a minute for the gauge to register. Thanks again for the help, Jim.

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Mark

08-04-2003 11:31:22

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Jim, 08-04-2003 05:18:55

am I wrong to think that oil pressure is measured at the CAM bearings and not the mains?

If nothing else, try using a heavy weight oil in the summer months 40 or even 50 weight and see if things change.

I recently changed oil in my JD 1050 with 37 horse Yanmar diesel. I put in Mobil 10w-40 and after warm up, the oil light would flicker at idle. NEVER had this problem before. So, I immediately drained the Mobil, replaced it with Rotella 40 weight and the problem disappeared completely. Some will scream, "no wonder you were using gasoline engine oil in a diesel". well, that's BS because I've used standard 10w-40 for 23 years in this tractor without the slightest problem. point is, some oils thin out more/quicker than others and it's worth a try to just change oils and or weights.

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Jim McKinney

08-08-2003 16:18:09

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Mark, 08-04-2003 11:31:22

Oil pressure on all gasoline engines (I believe) is measured at the oil pump. The pump sucks oil from the oil pan and sends it to the guage then the filter and from there to the rod, main and cam bearings. Iv replaced my WIX (new design) filter with an AC C412 new (old design) filter and my problem went away. Jim

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Ken Kunkel

04-20-2004 20:05:53

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Low Oil Pressure in reply to Jim McKinney, 08-08-2003 16:18:09

I have an IH 444 which also has low pressure when the engine warms up. It's runs about 50 cold but drops to about 10-12 after 20-15 minutes hard work so I've been worried that I'm on the edge of it throwing a rod soon.
My son changed the oil and fliter just after we bought the tractor a couple of months ago but I paid no attention to either the old or new one. Does anyone know the proper filter number for a '444? While I'm asking, how about a part number fo the air filter?

Thanks
Ken Kunkel

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