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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ?

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RWK in WI

12-28-2003 05:56:01




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I know we have all heard of the dangers of filling plastic gas cans on the plastic truck bed liners and we need to set the cans on the ground to be safe. Now however both gas stations are requireing snowmobilers and ATVers to unload their machines from the trailers before fueling them. Seems a new town ordinance was passed with little notice and now the local cop is enforceing with good revenue for the town. My question is this really a safety issue or just a money maker for the town?

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dale13

12-29-2003 08:11:50




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 Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to RWK in WI, 12-28-2003 05:56:01  
A show on either Discovery or TLC called mythbusters just went through the process of debunking the myth that cell phones could start fires.Believe me they tried everything to get one to ignite the fumes,these guys love explosions.But they did prove that static from getting out of the car i.e. sliding on the seat and then touching the filler does cause ignition.



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Farmered

12-29-2003 07:08:15




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 Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to RWK in WI, 12-28-2003 05:56:01  
Another related issue: Pulling your camper into a station with the pilot lites lit. I saw a car,trailer,gas pumps and station all go up in one giant inferno started by a pilot light. Ed



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T_Bone

12-28-2003 13:30:45




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 Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to RWK in WI, 12-28-2003 05:56:01  
Hi RKW,

Our local TV station did a article on the approx. same thing last year. Women wearing nylons were having fuel tanks catch fire while fueling.

The fire department did a demo and sure enough after rubbing nylon he touched the metal rim on the fuel neck filler and set off a fire. they showed the reaction in slow motion so you could see the spark jump from his finger tip to the filler neck ring. Shot fire back up his "coverd" arm to almost his shoulder. He then covered the fuel neck snuffing out the flame on the filler neck.

what the fire department said was the reaction of the person fueling is too pull away when they saw the flames thus spraying fuel all over the outside of the car creating a larger fire.

What charged the finger was the nylon rubbing against the car seat upholerstery so people should not get back into there car while fueling. They also stated talking on cell phones while fueling could also cause the same problems.

T_Bone

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john

12-29-2003 05:55:31




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 Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to T_Bone, 12-28-2003 13:30:45  
Static elec. is the #1 cause of gas station fires. While it is discharged safely when you grab the pump because it is grounded and their is very little if any vapors present. If you build up a charge after the nozzle is in the tank neck it can start a fire with many vapors present. The reason it does this even with the grounding wire in the fuel hose is it sparks to the car before you ever touch the nozzle. Vapor recovery nozzles seem to cut down on this by removing most vapors but is not proven.

Think what you want but cell phones have been proven to start gas fires. While it is on store video tape it could be put off as blamed on cell phone but just static elec. But on the other hand their has been documented cases of a cell phone ringing and a fire starting just as the phone was answered in oil refineries.

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D.L.

12-28-2003 17:06:56




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 Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to T_Bone, 12-28-2003 13:30:45  
so is the gumshoe hangin' around checkin the ladies for pantyhose??? what if he finds they're wearin' 'em?? have to take 'em off before fueling??? might be the job to have!!!



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Larry NE IL

12-28-2003 20:09:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to D.L., 12-28-2003 17:06:56  
You get all the fat ugly ones!!!



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Red Dave

12-28-2003 15:29:46




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 Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to T_Bone, 12-28-2003 13:30:45  
I don't know about the nylons, but it may be so. In any case, I'm not putting on a pair of the wife's panty hose to find out for myself ;) Just not gonna do it. I'll take their word for it.

About the cell phones, there was a show on the Discovery channel recently dealing with legends, fact or fiction? They tried every way anybody could think of to start a fire in an explosive atmosphere with a cell phone and couldn't do it. In any kind of normal use, a cell phone just doesn't put out the kind of energy needed.

Pumping gasoline through a hose generates static electricity. That's why the NFPA 30 code for flammable and combustible liquids requires a grounding wire in fuel hose. It's purpose is to electrically bond the tank or can being filled to the supply tank and pump.

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T_Bone

12-28-2003 16:00:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to Red Dave, 12-28-2003 15:29:46  
Hi Dave,

LMAO, ahh come on, wearing nylons never hurt anyone...:)

I didn't explain myself clearly. What the fireman did was get the static charge then touched the fuel tank filler neck without the fuel nozzle being there so there would be no ground present. At one time there was plastic covered fuel nozzels, still is?, and that insulated you from discharging the static charge, then with there free hand the person tried to install the cap before they hung up the pump handle.

Ya I also have a hard time about cell phones setting off explosive charges, or in this case a fuel tank. Remember back when the CB craze hit they also kept saying a CB could set off a explosive charge. I never remember hearing about any explosive set off by a CB. Don't mean that it can't but I just don't remember ever hearing about it.

T_Bone

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CH

12-28-2003 17:31:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to T_Bone, 12-28-2003 16:00:33  
Joe Namath used to be a fire hazzard. All kidding aside, every time I get out of my truck to fuel up in the winter, I get a shock when I grab the pump. Scares the he!! out of me. Not touching the pump, I have the same reaction when I get out of my chair and open the woodstove. Hate that shock.



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john d

12-28-2003 13:40:34




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 Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to T_Bone, 12-28-2003 13:30:45  
Not an exaggeration! Another related factor is the tendency for a static charge to build up very easily in colder climates during dry weather.

None of us want to be "over-regulated" but none of us want to be in the adjacent bay of the service station when one of these fires breaks out, either!



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buck

12-28-2003 12:43:44




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 Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to RWK in WI, 12-28-2003 05:56:01  

don't know how it is in your state but the first thing I would is question the authority of the police to be in a private service station attempting to inforce the rules of a local governing body. I don't think they can even inforce the no smoking or shut of the engine rules.



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Smarty

12-28-2003 11:23:40




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 Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to RWK in WI, 12-28-2003 05:56:01  
I would just fill up 5 gallon cans, instead of driving the ATV or Snowsled to the station. It would P*** me off if a cop fined me for filling my ATV at a gas station, without unloading it first.



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i r baboon

12-28-2003 10:51:56




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 Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to RWK in WI, 12-28-2003 05:56:01  
folks, what can be the difference in filling your pickup & filling your snowwhiz?????same exact hazard, or none???



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greenbeanman

12-28-2003 08:08:57




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 Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to RWK in WI, 12-28-2003 05:56:01  
The easy way is to fill a container on the ground, then fill the ATV/snowmobile wherever you wish to.
That would save unloading & loading.



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Van

12-28-2003 07:26:45




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 Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to RWK in WI, 12-28-2003 05:56:01  
Simple soulution, just take some cans with you and set them on the ground and fill them, then when you get to the trailhead, fuel the machines from the cans.



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greenbeanman

12-28-2003 08:38:24




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 Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to Van, 12-28-2003 07:26:45  
Sorry. I didn't mean to post the same thing. I pulled up the post area, then came back to make the post after a cup of coffee.



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Kevin (FL)

12-28-2003 06:21:11




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 Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to RWK in WI, 12-28-2003 05:56:01  
RWK,

Ask the town "gummit" types about using ground wires like the ones used at the airports. Instead of rolling the ATV's/snowmobiles off the trailers, just ground them to a metal pipe or a metal portion of the pump. Seems kinda knee-jerk to me to make you offload the equipment--don't you have to start up the machines to load/unload? Doesn't that mean potential for sparks and hot mufflers near fumes????

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Sam#3

12-29-2003 05:48:41




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 Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to Kevin (FL), 12-28-2003 06:21:11  
Don't try to confuse them with common sense.



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Shane

12-28-2003 07:58:12




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 Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to Kevin (FL), 12-28-2003 06:21:11  
Furthermore, if you have to unload them you are going to be moving them which could cause static electricity which is why they want them off the trailers... so do you have to unload 1/4 mile away then drive to the pumps and then get a ticket for riding on public streets in town? Sounds like another case of politicians to me!



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John (C-IL)

12-28-2003 06:19:34




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 Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to RWK in WI, 12-28-2003 05:56:01  
What they should have required is the same thing that we have to do when we fill up our bulk trucks, The truck has to be grounded to the loading rack with a cable. Do this. Take your jumper cables out of the truck and fasten one clamp to a good grounding spot on the snowmobile and one clamp on a good grounding spot on the trailer. Then, if you can find one fasten the other end of the cables to the pump on a good metal grounding spot. This will elimninate the possiblity of a spark from static electricity.

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john

12-28-2003 12:33:35




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 Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to John (C-IL), 12-28-2003 06:19:34  
what are you doing that you use a ground cable
Top Loading



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John (C-IL)

12-28-2003 17:02:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to john, 12-28-2003 12:33:35  
Loading a bulk delivery truck, we have a grounding strap that we attach to the top of the tank.



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john

12-29-2003 06:39:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to John (C-IL), 12-28-2003 17:02:44  
OK I see..... . The grounding wire built into the pump hose at station does the same thing.

Sorry no offence; but I had to giggle after reading your post. While I very much understand your point as I load and unload over 40,000 gallons a day think of your post from this point of view and you will giggle too.

You pull into the gas station with your ATV in tow. On the next isle there is someone pumping gas into their SUV. You get out your truck and hook a set of jumper cables to the gas pump. Now look up at the person on the next isle. What is the expression on his face? Sorry but it makes me laugh every time I try to picture his face.

Have a great day
JOHN

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Brian in Ohio

12-28-2003 06:05:53




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 Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to RWK in WI, 12-28-2003 05:56:01  
I think they have a legitimate safety issue here. I know with gas cans, the issue concerns eliminating any static electricity which could cause a spark and ignite the gas. I can see where filling an ATV in the back of a pickup could cause a similar problem. And, if it did ignite in the truck, it would not only start a fire on the ATV, but could start the truck a burnin' too. I know it sounds like a revenue maker for the town, but I'd rather see safety being enforced, then see an unnecessary accident. Just my 2 cents worth... Dismounting from soapbox now...

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RAB

12-28-2003 11:39:06




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 Re: Re: Fueling - Dangerous or ? ? ? in reply to Brian in Ohio, 12-28-2003 06:05:53  
Presumably an over-filling issue here too. Gas on the ground is one thing, gas in the back of a pick-up is another..... .
Be safe and regards, RAB



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