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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

PTO HP

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Pete

09-18-2004 08:57:32




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I have been told that too get the most PTO horse power out of a tractor to run the RPM's at 2200 or at the pto mark on the tack. Is this true???? I was told when I run at "wide open" 2500-2900 RPM's I'm loosing HP. Is this true???? I always thought more RPM's = more horse power.....




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thurlow

09-20-2004 09:23:27




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 Re: PTO HP in reply to Pete, 09-18-2004 08:57:32  
Can't disagree with anything said below, but..... ...think we're mostly talking diesels. On tractors with gasoline engine, I'm not so sure. Real life experience.....In the late 50s, my Dad traded in his AC "66" combine (engine driven, been pulling it with an "H" Farmall"" for a new "72" PTO driven. Had a new MF gas "50"....biggest thing on the farm at the time. Rated PTO speed was around 1600 or maybe 1650 as I recall. Muddiest Fall in years; finally took the rear tires/rims off a "30" Ferguson and mounted as duals on the "50". At the rated speed, the tractor would not pull itself and the combine; ran it at about 1800-1850 to get enough "oomph" to go down thru the field. Of course, we had trouble keeping the combine together at the higher speed; it wanted to shake itself apart. I spent a lot of days on a MF "35" hooked with a chain in front of the tractor/combine dragging it back and forth. The whole thing seems kind of silly now, but at the time, it was the best we could do. The next year we got a new D17 diesel, which was a much better match for the combine.....

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G-MAN

09-20-2004 07:50:13




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 Re: PTO HP in reply to Pete, 09-18-2004 08:57:32  
Any engine that will produce more horsepower at rated RPM than at high-idle with no load, or the maximum governed no-load speed of the engine. I can put a JD 4840 on the dyno, and basically have 0 horsepower at no load, because there is no resistance. As RealRon said, horsepower is a function of torque and RPM. At no-load, the dyno sees RPM but no torque as it's not providing a load. Once you begin to apply load, the horsepower increases. And as the torque-rise comes into play, horsepower can get even higher BELOW rated speed, as long as the additional torque can make up for the lost speed in the horsepower equation. Once it can no longer do so, horsepower will begin to drop off. So if you have a light load that you're running around at 2500 rpm with, you may only be producing and using 100 horsepower even if the tractor is rated 200. Load it down to rated RPM and you'll be producing the full 200 horsepower. That's not the best explanation, but gives you an idea.

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JWC

09-18-2004 23:14:08




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 Re: PTO HP in reply to Pete, 09-18-2004 08:57:32  
The manufacturer selects the gearing of the pto so that you will be able to maintain 540 or 1000 rpm at or near the maximum available power. HP is measured with a dynamometer, which measures force(torque) and shaft speed(rpm). Within whatever reserve the govenor on the engine affords you the maximum engine rpm will only occur at something less than the maximum load. The manufacturers do their best to maximize the amount work that can be obtained from each machine. The govenors are not set to limit the engine speed to the point where maximum power is produced because all tasks do not require maximum power or torque.

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Hugh MacKay

09-18-2004 19:15:36




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 Re: PTO HP in reply to Pete, 09-18-2004 08:57:32  
Pete: I think a bit on this torque-horsepower item can be learned from highway tractors. I have driven just about all Cat, Cummins, Mack, etc. Loaded on the highway you will get variations in power requirments with topography. For example a truck running at 1650 rpm, giving roughly 60 mph. and governed at 1800 rpm. If you lug that truck down to 1400 rpm on a hill, it will recover faster if you maintain your 1650 pedal setting than if you tramp the pedal to the floor.

A few years back I would have scoffed at the idea of cruise control in a highway tractor. They do work and work well. I have tried this with all of them and leave it on cruise, is the answer. There is a limit of course and you must shift.

Most of us grew up on cars and pickups with gas engines where it was pedal to the metal for power, just not so with diesel. In actual fact most diesels develop their max torque at or below 1500 rpm.

One job I have done is haul logs on ice roads with hills. You do as little shifting as possible, as it causes truck to spin out on the ice. Here is where the Cat and the Mack shine. I have seen those engines lug to 800 rpm and yes recover. Not recomended by the experts, but one H#$% of a lot better than going down the hill backwards.

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Rod F.

09-19-2004 04:09:16




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 Re: PTO HP in reply to Hugh MacKay, 09-18-2004 19:15:36  
The reason you seem to have more power on the pedal is simple. You do. An engine that is rated at 400 on the pedal, is often rated at about 430 on cruise. Nice feature, eh? That's one of the big bonuses from electronic controls. My old 350 formula doesn't have that. Otherwise, holding them to he rug is the way to go when you need the power. Take care.

Rod



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TheRealRon

09-18-2004 09:59:55




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 Re: PTO HP in reply to Pete, 09-18-2004 08:57:32  
Horsepower does not exist. It is a dervied number... hp = ((torque x rpm) / 5252).

Therefore, hp is dependent upon torque and rpm. All Otto cycle engines develop maximum torque at something much less than their maximum rpm. For most tractor engines it's 60% to 80% of maximum rpm but there are a lot of variables. Whoever told you that you lose hp at high rpm is correct. Best bet is to run to an rpm that's slightly above the rpm at which peak torque is developed and then shift. This lets the engine accelerate as fast as possible.

Tractor manufacturers were and are smart. It just so happens that they design them so that the engines' maximum torque is developed at, you guessed it, close to the rated PTO speed.

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Jon C -Florida

09-18-2004 14:56:03




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 Re: PTO HP in reply to TheRealRon, 09-18-2004 09:59:55  
I think you meant that maximim H.P. (and not torque) is developed at close to the rated P.T.O speed. I think in general the maximum torque is less than the P.T.O. r.p.m. Nevertheless the point you make is well taken. Here is a link for additional information.



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Jon C- florida

09-18-2004 14:57:35




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 Re:link in reply to Jon C -Florida, 09-18-2004 14:56:03  
Link



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Oliver farmer

09-18-2004 14:35:03




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 Re: PTO HP in reply to TheRealRon, 09-18-2004 09:59:55  
I agree that most tractors develop maximum torque around pto speed, and that they develop less torque at higher speeds, but speed is part of the horsepower formula as well. Most engines make more power with more RPM's. Spin them fast enough, (faster than a tractor engine) and eventually power will start to fall, because air/fuel can't flow into the cylinders fast enough.



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Joe (Wa)

09-18-2004 09:19:54




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 Re: PTO HP in reply to Pete, 09-18-2004 08:57:32  
Most PTO implements are designed to run @ 540 and/or 1000 rpm. The PTO mark(s) on the tach is the engine rpm that corresponds to the design PTO rpm. Yes higher rpm within reason equals more HP.

Joe



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