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O.T. Hog factory

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JoeMN

03-03-2005 20:12:16




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Some investors are proposing to build a 2500 sow farrowing barn nearby in central MN. Most livestock operations here are small dairy, beef and some poultry. How wide an area is affected by this size hog setup by odor? How many acres of cropland would be required to spread manure? I would welcome any insight on living near similar operations.




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Bus Driver

03-05-2005 10:15:02




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JoeMN, 03-03-2005 20:12:16  
There are some systems that treat the waste using a limited area. A company called Bion Technologies used aerated treating ponds- very little odor. Just maybe there will be a treatment system used that will solve the odor problem. Folks in paper mill towns used to say that it smelled like ham and eggs to them.



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dr.sportster

03-05-2005 05:14:29




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JoeMN, 03-03-2005 20:12:16  
It cant be a "HOG" factory without the Harley-Davison Lawyers moaning about how they own the use of the word hog.They should fire the lawyers and worry more about hiring engineers at that company.



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Dave From MN

03-04-2005 14:28:09




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JoeMN, 03-03-2005 20:12:16  
Where abouts in central MN?



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JoeMN

03-04-2005 14:34:21




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to Dave From MN, 03-04-2005 14:28:09  
About 30 miles North East of Alexandria on the Todd-Ottertail county line.



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paul

03-04-2005 22:43:25




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JoeMN, 03-04-2005 14:34:21  
Yea, that sure isn't normal hog country. Down here around Brown/ Nicollet counties you can usually see the next 1000 head barn (or more commenly a set of 4) when the last one is disappearing on the horizon. Way more grass land up there, not much hogs.

--->Paul



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paul

03-04-2005 23:04:58




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to paul, 03-04-2005 22:43:25  
Wow, you only have 15-20,000 hogs per county up there. That one small operation will add more than 10%!

These 2 counties down here have 250,000 hogs each. Another set of barns with 4000 hogs is hardly noticed any more around here.

I think you are looking at about 100 acres per 1000 hogs for the manure, but since I don't raise hogs I'm not sure. A manure plan with signed leases is required for them to operate. Of late farm land is sold down here with a manure easement - they can apply manure after harvest even if you buy the land from them. Mostly a good thing, free fertilizer.....

--->Paul

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paul

03-04-2005 13:55:12




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JoeMN, 03-03-2005 20:12:16  
In my opinion, the tree huggers & anti-farming groups have brought this type of operation upon the world much faster than would have naturally happened.

I do remember when my small town had 2 'big' grocery stores and 5 corner grociries that were the size of my kitchen. Today there are 2 grociery stores over 100,000 sqft each.

There is a Target & a Kmart & a preposed Walmart. Not many other stores in town.

Our ecconomy is designed to reward large companies that work on an ecconomy of scale.

Farming is no different.

Add the regulations, zoning, & red tape that the tree huggers have added, and the small farms cannot compete. I read in today's paper a new hog barn was required to put some sort of 'scrubbers' on thier hog barn. At a cost of $25,000. A small hog opertaion will be required to meat the same standards. How do you prepose to pay for $25,000 of equipment with, say, 200 hogs????? And so on. Exsisting hog barns are grandfathered into such red tape. Hower, when the owner dies or sells, the son or new owner needs to meet the new laws. The only option is to shut down, or put up a 4,000 or bigger new barn. Laws do not allow any in between any more.

How will not allowing the sow operation affect you? Dairies are dying here in Minnesota. The Fed milk regulations are making sure of that. Where will all the farmers go? What will they do? Where will the grain get used that is produced here? Depress gain prices by not allowing livestock operations, and then all the farmers - livestock & grain - will be gone.

What do you have left where you live?

I know that does not help if you are 1/2 mile downwind of a large hog operation, and I do not mean to belittle your concerns.

But, where do we turn, what do we do? Just something to think on.

--->Paul

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Greywolf

03-05-2005 05:02:16




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to paul, 03-04-2005 13:55:12  
The scrubber systems they are talking about are biological. From what I've read into it it's trees not mechanical.

One of the proposed operations is about 3 miles south of me...the other about 7 miles south of me. They can put them in... I personally have no qualms of them going up. The owners of the proposed operations are farmers (i know the ppl personally)... not mega corps. Not sure if they are contracting with Christenson's or not tho.

I have a 450 (thats just the milking numbers) head dairy 1/2 mile from me... no problems with them at all ordor or otherwise. Neighbor from him has a small hog setup as a supplement to the family operation. Again no problems.

1 mile north are a 4 hog barn set up.. and yes that guy lives on site. That family has about 7 barns going right now. They are a "farm" family. 3 brothers operating the 7 barns plus about 2500 acres. The dairy operation runs about 1000 acres.

As you stated in the other post paul, many on this board don't know how aggressive the state of MN is on new operations going up. Actually it isn't so much the state as the county's. Both of these new operations are in Renville county and the memories of Valtra ( i think that was the name) are still very very fresh in their mind.

If I were still in operation with fat cattle, I'd be bumped out myself. As it is... setup put up with county's blessing 35 yrs ago and listed as state of the art system at the time (many called us mini So St Paul), I have to beg to keep my 12 horses here. And I can hold 1,000 hd of fat beef with roof space for all. The times are a changing that's for sure.

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JoeMN

03-04-2005 14:30:13




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to paul, 03-04-2005 13:55:12  
I appreciate the thoughtful and thought provoking responses. Paul,the local dairy farmers are facing exactly the pressures you describe. There is precious little crop land on which to spread animal waste,since farmers have significant acres in hay and pasture. Also, International Paper Co has purchased 20,000 acres for popple trees in the area and that all used to be cropland.



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paul

03-04-2005 19:57:03




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JoeMN, 03-04-2005 14:30:13  
There will be a 3 day period that is kinda bad when they spread the stuff. Should you have a temprature inversion at that time (hazy, windless days) then it gets really kinda aweful.

Otherwise at 1/2 mile it is noticable when the wind is blowing to you, at a mile you"ll know it but won"t bother you.

Some lagoons alls will smell for 2-4 days as they thaw open about now.

Most other days it isn"t much of a deal.

If you are closer, then I would be asking questions as well. Luck of the draw..... .

At least that is how the 4000 feeder hog setups are here. I"ve never ever noticed the 100 head dairies that are here.

--->Paul

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buickanddeere

03-04-2005 10:06:22




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JoeMN, 03-03-2005 20:12:16  
Some of these operations use earth lagoons which can be porous and leach nitrates and even sh*t right into the ground water. If the manure is spread on snow, just before a rain or isn't worked into the ground. Surface run off and leaching into tile drains is a problem. Many of these factories are built on 50 acres or so of land. With so much manure and so little land the soil is overloaded and turns sour.

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jddriver

03-04-2005 17:28:11




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to buickanddeere, 03-04-2005 10:06:22  
Glen you are so right.Premium standard farms in princeton Mo has killed the grand river from all "accidental" spills.Land values for miles around will faaaaa lllll l.They buy no local corn or feed it is all trucked in.They will also hire mostlt cheap labor.That is what happened here>Steve



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JMS/MN

03-04-2005 11:45:13




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to buickanddeere, 03-04-2005 10:06:22  
I also live in central MN, and these operations do not go in without adequate permits from the county and the State. Part of the process of obtaining a permit for a given number of animal units is a manure management plan. Enough acres have to be lined up by the operator to spread manure on so the application does not exceed certain limits. It is generally knifed in, rather than surface applied. I've seen plenty of small operators with sloppy practices that do more damage to the environment, so a large size operation does not necessarily mean more problems. They are being watched way closer than the little slobs.

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paul

03-04-2005 14:04:47




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JMS/MN, 03-04-2005 11:45:13  
As a little slob, you are 100% correct. :)

They are now coming after the little slobs, so we will all be gone by 2012 in Minnesota. There is no way a small operator can afford the contraints & costs of the new regulations coming. You will see a lot more big operations, and almost no little operations in short order.

These laws are pushed by the feds, but it is up to your state to enact & enforce them, so many of you might think you are not affected - you will be.

The small livestock operator is gone, the only legal ones will be the very large totally confined ones.

Other people making comments here have no idea of the legal issues facing a hog barn in Minnesota - manure application rates, times, and type, and storage areas, setbacks from water & building sites will all be _well_ planned out & subject to legal review every 5 years in Minnesota.

--->Paul

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dhermesc

03-04-2005 12:52:58




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JMS/MN, 03-04-2005 11:45:13  
Agreed, every move these guys make is watched by the communities they operate within. Want to watch the fur fly watch some *%%*#^% build a $300,000 home down wind of one. They seem to forget that the "country" is an agricultural industrial park, not a undeveloped residential district.



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leland

03-04-2005 06:36:10




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JoeMN, 03-03-2005 20:12:16  
We have several in area and they arn't that bad,but IMO the dairy farms are 10x as rank as the hog farms.



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dhermesc

03-04-2005 05:39:18




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JoeMN, 03-03-2005 20:12:16  
Depends on their lagoon set up. Some set ups the oder is only noticeable within 400-500 yards, others will stink for a mile or so.



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RustyFarmall

03-04-2005 04:44:00




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JoeMN, 03-03-2005 20:12:16  
Make sure the legal eagles of your county are aware of the proposal. That hog operation may be prohibited by law.



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VADAVE

03-04-2005 04:20:05




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to JoeMN, 03-03-2005 20:12:16  
Joe that is the smell of money!
Seriously it totally depends on how they set it up. There techniques to eliminate(capture) and nuteralize the oder.
You might visit with the farmer as he may be looking for a way to dispose of the manure and it is an excellent natural fertilizer for your crops. It will bring micro-organisms to the soil that commercial fertilizers do not, does not have the salts AND should be less expensive.

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Dick

03-04-2005 19:04:52




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 Re: O.T. Hog factory in reply to VADAVE, 03-04-2005 04:20:05  
Yeah Dave, it might be the smell of money but will the money from a 2500 sow farrowing operation be spent in the local area? I doubt it. The low wage employees who will be working there will actually cost the community more in the long run. Just ask anyone from an area where there are large packing houses and immigrant labors. You mentioned the farmer might be looking for a way to dispose of his manure.. Well, in the first place,, the operator of this huge operation isn't really a farmer. We're talking about agra-business, and to call them a farmer is incorrect. Can you imagine how much manure will be generated by 2500 sows? If an operation of this size is going to be built, I'm sure they'll have to have a better plan than spreading manure on neighbors fields..

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