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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Head Gasket

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BUDD

05-11-2005 07:34:56




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Help, PLEASE Two years ago I had my head milled and reinstalled. Last year I pulled it back apart and found that the gasket was leaking in-between the cylinders. I pulled the block and took both the head and block to a GOOD machine shop. Both where touched up to be flat. I put it back together only to have water dripping on right side at the plug area. This did not bother me, but last fall I had water get into one of the cylinders (white smoke on start up). I just pulled the head off and found the cylinders are still leaking in between the two. I have been using J.D. head gaskets with a spray on copper coat from Napa. I also installed grade 8 bolts and tourqed (spelling) them down to 180 ponds. I warmed it up to operating temp and retourqed when hot. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG The compression is 147 on both sides. A standard head gasket should hold this, but it is not.

THANKS BUDD

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J. Schwiebert

05-11-2005 18:44:49




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to BUDD, 05-11-2005 07:34:56  
I forgot to ask if you have ever used Victor's carbonless impression paper to give you more clues on your head gasket problem?



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J. Schwiebert

05-11-2005 18:08:50




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to BUDD, 05-11-2005 07:34:56  
We had a problem like that on a 4 cylinder Deere. Come to find out the gasket had been overtorqued. Deere has used different grades of fastners on the same engine. We sent the gasket back to the gasket manufacture and once they checked it and gave the customer the correct torque value the problem was solved. Have you played Surlock Holmes with the old gasket to detect the source of the problem? Do you have a inch micrometer>

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Don Wadge

05-11-2005 12:15:09




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to BUDD, 05-11-2005 07:34:56  
Budd,
I think you should not be over torqueing the head as you are. I suspect that in fact is your problem. The grade 8 studs may alos be an issue, I don"t know. My experience comes from a couple of (styled) AR"s that I puchased with leaking heads. I"m not certain the AR used exactly the same block as the A, but if it is not it is most likely almost identical. The AR block is not a strong block around the stud area and if overtightened will crack from the stud area in toward the cylinder. Both of the ones I had cracked at the lower center stud as I remember. If you have not cracked yours as yet it may be that it is distorting and creating an uneven surface, thus leaking. I also don"t think you need to use any sealant with a new head gasket. I"m sure there are all kinds of opinions on that though.

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RAB

05-11-2005 14:30:34




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to Don Wadge, 05-11-2005 12:15:09  
Just adding to Don"s comments: Are the threads on the new stud/nuts the same as the OEM? Pull down will be different for different thread pitch; As an example to his comment of distortion on over tightening, not so many know that on some old large oil engines, bolts on the big ends were not torqued down to any set value, but tightened as much as necessary to make the bearing circular (either side of ideal would result in a slightly oval bearing), so they were first bench torqued until the bearing became perfectly round then installed to that torque.
Also retightening technique is presumably relaxing one bolt (in the order laid down in the manual), say 90 degrees, and retightening to final torque, then moving on to the next bolt in the sequence.
With regard to surface treatment of gaskets - follow the actual gasket manufacturer instructions/recommendations as you may be wasting your money, if you are not installing it correctly. Good luck.
Regards, RAB

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Mike M

05-11-2005 10:48:11




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to BUDD, 05-11-2005 07:34:56  
I never did like the sandwich style head gaskets Deere sells. I also have been having trouble with copper coat so the last one I did I used some permetex #3 (I think) Time will tell.

You might get a hold of Lubbock Gaskets in TX. I know of some pullers that use theirs with good luck. I would of used one of his on my last tractor but it was a diesel and had too much compression for what he rated his at.He also sells copper gaskets that will take anything ,but my surfaces weren't good enough to use it.

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Maark

05-11-2005 10:07:30




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to BUDD, 05-11-2005 07:34:56  
Make sure the smooth side of the gasket goes next to the block. Fire rings next to the head



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1945 A

05-11-2005 09:43:05




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to BUDD, 05-11-2005 07:34:56  
One other thing that comes to mind, (just a thought, so please don"t take offense), is the torque sequence. I"ve always been told to start in the middle, and work towards the outside, and also, to torque "in stages", in other words start low, and work up to the final setting.
It seems like, that on my "A" the final setting was 125 ft.lbs. for the head, but, it"s been a few years since I did it, so the value may not be correct. I also used the lead washers from JD under the nuts....
Good Luck!

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Van in AR

05-11-2005 09:23:52




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to BUDD, 05-11-2005 07:34:56  
I think that the grade 8 bolts are wrong, too hard to stretch properly. It heats up and leaks.
Van



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Bob

05-11-2005 10:13:01




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to Van in AR, 05-11-2005 09:23:52  
I didn't catch the fact he was using bolts instead of the original studs. That would throw of the recommended torque values.

Studs allow more accurate torquing, and have other advantages. GET RID OF THE BOLTS and install the studs, as Mother Deere intended it to have!



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BUDD

05-11-2005 10:16:58




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to Bob, 05-11-2005 10:13:01  
These are studs not bolts. The reason for the grade 8 is so I can tourqe the head tighter. BUDD



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BUDD

05-11-2005 07:49:40




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to BUDD, 05-11-2005 07:34:56  
It is a 49 "A"

BUDD



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Bob

05-11-2005 08:08:08




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 Re: Head Gasket in reply to BUDD, 05-11-2005 07:49:40  
I use a couple of coats of cheap aluminum spray paint on each side of the gasket, allowing drying time in between.



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