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Horse power in the old steam engines

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Charlie M

08-22-2005 13:38:40

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I was at a steam show a couple of weeks ago and they were plowing with the old steam engine tractors. They were pulling 8 bottoms of 14 or 16 inch each. What kind of horsepower do these old tractors have to be pulling plows like that? It was pretty impressive.

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Fred Martin

08-22-2005 19:19:11

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Charlie M, 08-22-2005 13:38:40

Was at the tractor show in Clarksburg, Ohio last year and they had the horse power testing machine. They had just hooked up an old steel wheeled Case to it and they would take readings at different rpm"s. The test took a while and put a pretty good lug on the old Case...she was steaming before the end of the test. If you ever get a chance to see this machine in action, it is well worth your time. I can"t explain it"s system but it did have a scales that as the hp was increased, it beared more on the scales and they referred to a chart to calculate the horse power. Fred OH

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Joe Evans

08-23-2005 06:31:33

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Fred Martin, 08-22-2005 19:19:11

Fred: the machine you saw was probably a Prony brake, and I'm willing to bet $100 it belonged to Bruce Babcock, a licensed boiler engineer and instuctor. Bruce travels to many shows in the Ohio area with his brake and display of steam piping and boiler components. A fascinating fellow. I spent a half hour or so with him this past Sunday taking advantage of his tent to get out of a rain storm at the Dover, Ohio power show.

I have had my W-9 on Babcock's brake two times the most recent being this past Sunday. We were not able to get a good reading the first time two years ago as there was a problems with the flat belt so full power couldn't be transmitted. This Sunday there was no such problem, and the W-9 proved to be very, very muscular. In fact, I shut it down early--I felt the tractor was pulling too hard for too long and got uneasy about it. It could've pulled more as the RPM was still holding relatively steady, but I didn't want to risk it.

The brake simply measures torque in foot-lbs (applied to the scale) and RPM (monitored) with a hand-held tach. These figures are plugged into the equation TORQUE X RPM divided by 5252. Babcock has simplified the equation somewhat by only having to divide by 1000 because his torque arm that pushes on the scale is precisely 5.252 feet long from the end pin-point to the centerline of the belt pulley axle.

BTW: Bruce Babcock led the investigation into the tragic steam tractor explosion that occurred in Medina, Ohio several years ago.

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Robert in W. Mi.

08-22-2005 19:13:03

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Charlie M, 08-22-2005 13:38:40

This 120 hp Avery is one of about three "total", left in operation and i'm told, the only one east of the Mississippi. I've watched it plow many times and it pulls this 12 bottom plow with ease...

Robert

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Bill(Wis)

08-22-2005 18:55:09

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Charlie M, 08-22-2005 13:38:40

The Mt Washington cog railway still uses steam engines to push passengers up to the top. Each engine uses one ton of coal and 1000 gallons of water for each climb. Coal is all hand shoveled by the fireman. About twelve shovelfuls per minute. Closes the firebox door after each shovelful. Ride back down is free of course.

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Ludwig

08-23-2005 11:12:52

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Bill(Wis), 08-22-2005 18:55:09

I went up that a couple years ago, on the ride back down I sat on the platform on the back (uphill) side of the car. That's the best place to ride, talked with a track maintenence guy. They do all sorts of maintenance in between trains...

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buickanddeere

08-22-2005 19:26:15

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Bill(Wis), 08-22-2005 18:55:09

They open, shovel and close the firebox door every 5 seconds? I seen the cogged railroad there on Mt Washington a few years back. The inclinded boilers was the 1st item noticed unusual, then the drive system. Mighty nice view and place up there when it isn't storming. There is even a hiking trail across the Mt. The rate of rise is so fast and so far up that some people get a little altitude sickness.

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john d

08-22-2005 20:28:45

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to buickanddeere, 08-22-2005 19:26:15

Most of those engines have a foot-operated fire box door. Load shovel with coal, take step toward door, which opens it, throw in coal, and it closes automatically. Two people can feed coal in at the rate of 12 a minute if they're used to doing it.

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Bill(Wis)

08-22-2005 21:22:17

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to john d, 08-22-2005 20:28:45

Yes, and they do it for about one hour and fifteen minutes steady. Whew.

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Leland

08-22-2005 18:45:00

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Charlie M, 08-22-2005 13:38:40

This weekend in Rantoul ILL they are havine 3 steamers pulling a 60 plow set up this is going to be one heck of a show.

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Bill WI

08-22-2005 18:17:00

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Charlie M, 08-22-2005 13:38:40

Biggest group of working steam engines I ever saw is at Mt Pleasant IA at the old threshers show over Labor Day every year. Pulling contests and belt them up.Also steam locomotives running around the grounds all day, plus tractors, ect. I think it's a great show and plan to make it again this year. Look up Old Threshers .org and you decide. I really like the show and people. I have about 500 mi drive and camp over. Large crowd.

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Red Dave

08-22-2005 17:10:48

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Charlie M, 08-22-2005 13:38:40

Horsepower is measurment of the ability to do a specified amount of work over a given amount of time. Same work in half the time requires twice the horsepower.

The steam traction engines pull a lot of plows, but they pull them fairly slowly in comparison to a modern gasoline or diesel tractor. They have a lot of pulling power (work), but can't pull them very fast (time).

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buickanddeere

08-22-2005 16:15:43

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Charlie M, 08-22-2005 13:38:40

There is engine HP and boiler HP. HP is HP. 50 HP from an electric motor, piston steam engine, turbine steam engine, gas turbine, four stroke diesel Cummons, two stroke Detroit or a Deere two cylinder. If they max out at 50HP, then they can all do the same amount of work per hour. The boiler is usually undersized with relation to the engine. If a good head of steam is built up then there is several seconds of power far beyond the boiler's continuous rated HP. Available to the engine. There is the matter of engine efficiency. Additional steam per stroke above the normal spurt at TDC can be used. The extra steam still being added to the cylinder from the boiler as the piston is well down the bore. This does increase overall average cylinder pressure per cycle. Unfortunately the efficient use of steam declines. Not unlike over fueling a diesel engine. After a point, 50% more steam or fuel does not make 50% extra power. When lugged down a piston steam engines torque is max at stall. Of course at that time HP is also zero but drawbar pull is at max. So they can pound along at a crawl hauling a massive overload. The old steam engines and locomotives suffered very poor fuel efficiency. There is not enough room for a large enough 2nd stage cylinder or even a third stage cylinder or a turbine. The boiler uses cold water from the storage tank rather than hot condensate. And that hot exhausted steam from the cylinders is just shot up the stack in order to make draft. It ideally would be preheating boiler feed water then condensed and used again. The single cycle use of boiler water caused much boiler sludging and thermal inefficiency.

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Rauville

08-22-2005 16:09:45

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Charlie M, 08-22-2005 13:38:40

If I remember right, J.I.Case engines were rated in belt horsepower, while drawbar HP was about 1/3 of that amount. Example: 65 HP engine would equal about 20 HP at the drawbar.
But "Old" is right, that engine weighed over 10 ton dry.
Fellow here in town has a 110 HP Case. When he hooks that up for plowing, it's pure energy in action!

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Coloken

08-22-2005 16:48:57

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Case at Lodgepole Neb in reply to Rauville, 08-22-2005 16:09:45

I'm sure the Case tractor at Lodge Pole Neb will be fired up at the anual Labor day thingey at Lodge Pole . Think its a 3 day event. Any one know for sure?

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Bob-Wyo

08-22-2005 18:36:13

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Re: Case at Lodgepole Neb in reply to Coloken, 08-22-2005 16:48:57

Ken all I know is the tractor pull is Sunday the 4th. Where is that Case kept? I've been there for the last 3 years and have never seen it. My friend Lee has died and I have no other contacts there anymore, like to see it hooked to that plow thats up in the museum yard
There used to be more antique's in that little town, even a Rolls Royce in the window on main street.
Small towns do it right, that's why I go, more fun, had a really great day in Ault, Colo 2 weeks ago at there's.
Bob

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coloken

08-22-2005 21:48:56

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Re: Case at Lodgepole Neb in reply to Bob-Wyo, 08-22-2005 18:36:13

Bob, Think its stored right next to the museum plow. When I saw it , it was about 20 feet away from it. They did not pull it, just ran it on parade day. Owner should be in that little coffee shop just south of the museum on about any morning...forgot his name. Hope to make it..Best friend bought the field/house/lime stone barn just south of the tracks.
Kennyp

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Coloken

08-22-2005 15:10:54

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Charlie M, 08-22-2005 13:38:40

Remember, the same horse power will pull 5 times as much at 1 MPH as at 5 MPH. Takes a lot of ground traction and those old boys were heavy.

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old

08-22-2005 14:42:45

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Charlie M, 08-22-2005 13:38:40

A lot of them where rated pretty low like around 15HP on the draw bar. But a steam engine runs differant then a gas or diesel engine. An they got a lot more power from each stroke then a gas engine does.

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sawtooth

08-22-2005 19:45:15

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to old, 08-22-2005 14:42:45

I agree with your saying that a steam engine runs different than a gas or diesel. Watching one plow at a Farm Progress show it was very noticeable. The engine lugged down to very slow rpm's- until it literally stopped. An internal cumbustion engine would be dead, but the steam engine just built more pressure and came back to life. It was a Case on an 8 bottom and going slow, but fun to watch. Very awkward, not for small fields. I also wonder how long the drive train would last with open gears.

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old

08-22-2005 19:56:13

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to sawtooth, 08-22-2005 19:45:15

Well think of it this way the drive train most be pretty good other wise a lot of the old steam tractors wouldn't still be around. The key to how long they lasted was how clean you kept the gears and how well lubed they where. I know the to don't mix well but its how it was done as far as what I have been told.

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fixerupper

08-22-2005 19:43:18

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to old, 08-22-2005 14:42:45

This is what I heard, and I cannot verify if it is right; Steam traction engine horsepower is equivalent to how much a horse can pull. One steam horsepower is equivalent to how much one horse can pull. There are holes in this theory and the biggest one is the size of the horse, the breed and the age. Jim

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old

08-22-2005 19:53:30

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to fixerupper, 08-22-2005 19:43:18

Biggest reason they pull so well is they don't stall like a gas or diesel will. All that happens to them if they stop going forward of a little is the preassure has to build to the point that it just plan goes again. Do that to a gas engine and something will drop out of it.

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Mark - IN.

08-22-2005 17:45:35

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to old, 08-22-2005 14:42:45

I agree. Do not compare a 15HP Briggs to a 15HP AC B to a 15HP Rumley. One will run a garden tractor, one will drag a one bottom, and one will pull a house down.

I remember as a kid an old farmer tooling up on an old steam powered to the country store. I was about 4, and ran like heck all the way home. I knew what a B was, what a H and M were, but never seen anything like that, and it scared the living heck out of me. A controlled explosion on wheels, and quite impressive these days. Certainly are an art to punks like me.

Mark

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buickanddeere

08-23-2005 08:20:24

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to Mark - IN., 08-22-2005 17:45:35

15HP on the dyno is 15HP no matter if it's a Briggs, Case B, electric motor or a steamer. What you are getting confused by is the torque curve when lugged. Weight, rolling friction, tire type , hitch type all play a part. Put all of those on a pto drive to a pump or electrical generator and all four will do the same amount of work in a day. That steamer could be pulling the plough at a crawl and only be making 2HP.

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Mark - IN.

08-24-2005 17:02:14

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Re: Horse power in the old steam engines in reply to buickanddeere, 08-23-2005 08:20:24

Oh, I agree Buick. Torque is where it's at. I guess I should've thought before I spoke.

Mark

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