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Water Well Problems

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john in la

12-19-2005 18:05:30




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Ain't this great. My child just informs me the water is not working in the bath tub. No its not frozen; its 50° right now.

Went out and looked at the pump but do not see anything wrong at first glance.

For some reason the tank is running dry before the pump cuts on. I have the pump set at 40/60 and per the OLD gauge seems to be coming on and going off at the proper time.

If you turn water on it runs very well for a while then goes down to a small drip as if it is running out of water pressure. If you leave the valve open the pump will eventually come on and water will run fine till pump cuts off and then it runs dry again. Seems like the pressure switch is set at 0/60 but the gauge does not show this to be true.

Guess I will change the gauge first to see if it is miss reading the pressure.

Any Ideas????? ????? ????? ???

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john in la

12-20-2005 18:34:40




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 UPDATE in reply to john in la, 12-19-2005 18:05:30  
Thanks for the tips..... .....
A little history..... .
My well is 220 ft and about 25 years old.
I have a 1hp shallow well jet pump and a 80 gal equivalent tank. I call it a bladder tank but feel this is wrong. It is one of those tanks with a rubber baffle half way down with air on top and water on bottom.
I had to replace the pump housing about 15 years ago so I replaced the check valve and pressure switch at the same time. The motor is original so its 25 years old.
The tank is about 10 yrs old.
I thought my switch was a 40/60 but when I went to get one today I noticed they come in 20/40 and 30/50 so I got a 30/50. I am pushing water over 200ft through 1 1/4" pipe to the house.


I went out today and looked it over. Not to bad as it was about 60° today.
Took out the gauge to see if it was clogged and it reads 40 lbs in my hand so we need a new gauge.
Tried to take off the pressure switch and the pipe nipple broke right off from rust so new nipple and pressure switch.
While I got the tank empty I checked the air charge. 16lbs. Guess this tank was for a 20/40 system and lost 2lbs over 10 years so not bad.
Filled the air charge to 28 lbs and installed the new gauge and switch.

Every thing seems to be working fine now but I do have what seems to be a shot of air or hiccup when the pump comes on. My check valve is most likely leaking back into the well so that will be next project. WHEN IT WARMS UP!!!!! !!!!! !!!

Thanks again for the help.

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gary case

12-21-2005 10:28:18




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 Re: UPDATE in reply to john in la, 12-20-2005 18:34:40  
john what do you mean warms up? i'd be out painting a tractor, if it were that hot.up here in the great lake state we'd love that temp. anyway, it sounds to me like you should have a deep well pump,i think. thats a long haul. had to be a great pump lasting that long. well i got to get another arm full of wood,about 68* in here. gary



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T_Bone

12-20-2005 07:09:38




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 Re: Water Well Problems in reply to john in la, 12-19-2005 18:05:30  
Morn'n John,

Lets build a simple well system to understand why your is not pumpimg water 100% of the time.

The well Shaft/Bore:
Here we sink a hollow hole into the ground at underground water depth that contains water in the sand and gravel. This hole void allows water from the sand and gravel to collect in the bore hole to be pumped to the surface.

To keep the bore hole from filling with sand and gravel as the water runs into the shaft we add perferated bore casing. This "screens" out the sand and gravel only allowing water to run into the shaft and called the static water head.

Static water head is amount of the available water to be able to be pumped the surface.


Next The Pump:
When we add a pump to the bore, we have to size the pump to the demand of the available water static head inside the bore plus how much free water runs into the bore as we pump it out.

To size the pump needed, we pump the water out of the shaft until the bore runs dry and measure how long this process takes. This determines how many gpm our well can produce at maximum available water.

The system pump is then sized slightly smaller so we don't pump the well dry when in use and is typicaly loacated 20ft to 40ft off the bottom of the shaft. This is to keep the pump from pumping sand.


Next Add the Foot Valve:
When we first install a new pump, we have to prime the pump and related piping with water to start the water flowing. Once we stop the pump then water will drain back into the well shaft.

The foot valve is nothing more than a check valve on the suction side of the pump and keeps water available to the pump at all times.

We also add check valves on the pump discharge piping at every vertical joint until the surface. The vertical check valves keeps the vertical pipes full of water.

At this point if you have to wait for the pump to pump water then you could have a bad (leaking) foot valve, or you don't have the water available to pump.


Next We Add Pump Control:
When we want the water to stop we shut the pump off. We can do this manualy or automaticly. A pressure switch(PS) is the most common way to automaticly control the off/on of the pump.

A the same time the PS also controls the pump discharge pressure. This allows us to add a PS sensing tube to the PS bellows and the bellows orperate the electrical switch.

As the pump builds pressure to 40psi, then the pressure is applied to the switch bellows and open the PS contacts and shuts off the pump. As the pressure drops from the bellows to 20psi, then this turns on the pump hence the term 40/20psi PS. Another common PS setting is 30/50psi.

So at this point if the pump is on and pumping a steady stream of water then the system is working just fine. If you shut off the water flow, close a main line discharge valve, and the pump shuts off, then this confirms that the PS is working just fine and the PS turns the pump on/off when it should.

If the PS doesn't turn off/on at the listed PS pressure setting then the PS is bad or the sensing tube is plugged. The PS is non-repairable.

Also note at this point that the pump will turn off/on almost in direct relationship to the depening/closing of a facuet and it's almost impossible to read pump pressure kick on/off pressures as this happens very quickly, called short cycling.


Next We Add A Pressure Tank:
If don't want our pump coming on and shutting off every time we open a facuet then we need to add a pressure tank in the main water line.

The most common pressure tank has a bladder bag. A bladder is nothing more than a rubber "type" bag inside a steel cylinder. The bladder is filled with water every time the pump runs. The bladder tank is installed from a "T" in the main water line.

Water is not compressable but air is. So we add a air charge above the bladder bag of 2psi less than pump cut on pressure. In the case of a 20/40psi PS, then our precharge air would be 18psi when the bladder is empty. The precharge of air sits between the bladder bag and the tank walls and is never in contact with the water.

Our pump now pumps water into the main line as well as the bladder tank to 40psi thus storing water inside the bladder and shuts off the PS that turns off the pump.

As a water facuet is turned on, then water will flow from the bladder bag into the main line until there's no water left inside the bag. This is called the bladder tank draw down rating. A common draw down rating is 11gal. So you have to use 11gal of water before the pump will kick on. Different size pressure tanks have different draw down ratings. The larger the draw down rating the less your pump will run. The less a pumps runs, the longer the pump will last.

After the draw down rating is met, then that will drop pressure to the PS, in this case 20psi, thus turns on the pump to refill the bladder tank while at the same time suppling water to the system main line. When the water pressure hits 40psi the pump will shut off.

So if a bladder tank looses it's precharge pressure, then the system will cycle just like a bladder pressure tank was not installed and once again short cycle the pump.

If the precharge air pressure is less than the the correct amount then most likely you have a hole in the bladder bag but also could have a leaking schrader valve core/fitting.

*****************************************

Check your pressure tank. Leave the pump off and turn on the facuet until the water quits running. Take a precharge air pressure reading.Correct the precharge air pressure if required.

If your system once again doesn't work after a short time and the precharge air is again low then you have a bad bladder tank.

Next check your PS for correct orperation. Pump turns on at 20psi and off at 40psi. If not then replace gauge. If the pump doesn't turn on/off then check to see if the sensing tube is plugged. Sensing tube ok then replace switch.

Next you will need to turn on a facuet then turn on the pump.

If you loosing water pressure or volume during this test, then your pump or the amount of available water in your well has a problem.

If you have a steady stream of water to the facuet then your pump and well system are in normal running condition. Do not leave your pump running with the facuet shut off and without the orperation of a working pressure switch.

This is just one type of water well system but very common.

T_Bone

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Bus Driver

12-20-2005 04:12:33




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 Re: Water Well Problems in reply to john in la, 12-19-2005 18:05:30  
I agree with CBBC. Most likely, the pipe or tubing that sends the pressure signal to the pressure switch is clogged. Could be the threaded opening in the pump housing or mainifold where this tube or pipe originates.



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Allan in NE

12-20-2005 03:30:33




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 Re: Water Well Problems in reply to john in la, 12-19-2005 18:05:30  
Hi John,

Been thru this on two wells.

In my case, the old casing had broken off down at the bottom, the wells had caved in and we had to punch new holes. For whatever the reason, sure sounds like your well is running dry to me.

Allan



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CBBC

12-19-2005 22:41:31




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 Re: Water Well Problems in reply to john in la, 12-19-2005 18:05:30  
Hi John,
Call a pump guy or an electrition if you don't know what you are doing!!!


My guess is the pressure switch. Do you hear it click on when the water starts to run again. Give it a tap gently and it may start. The pipe fittings to the switch might be plugged or it might be the switch itself.

If the foot valve went, the pump would be cycling on and off a lot when no fauctes are running(if the presure switch is not buggered).

Last spring I put in an inline anti-back flow valve because the foot valve jamed open. Then I replaced the pressure switch. A week later the motor gave up. I pulled 100' of 2" steal pipe out and then it slipped (the installers put no rope on the pump) I snagged the electrical wires and fished it up on a snatch block, with 5 guys we pulled the remaining 100' of pipe out, pump was squashed from drop. Went to Home Depot at 6pm. Bought a new pump with starter, 200' plastic pipe drop new wire and other assorted goodies. By 1:30 am we had water again. Not a good day. Did I mention I had a six month old and a wife used to being on city water.

Good luck, hopefully you don't need to pull the pump in the winter.
Grant

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jdemaris

12-19-2005 20:15:55




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 Re: Water Well Problems in reply to john in la, 12-19-2005 18:05:30  
You didn't mention if you've got a submerged pump, a jet-pump shallow well setup with the jet in the house on the pump, or a deep-well jet with the jet at the bottom of the well (two pipes going down), and maybe even an old piston pump. Since you're running pressures of 40-60, I'll assume it's not a piston-pump. Connections vary a little between jet systems and submerged - but either way, something is not making sense. Assuming you've got a standard manifold at the tank that holds the pressure gauge, pressure switch, and outlet that feeds water to your house's plumbing - the pressure the gauge shows should match what's coming out of your faucets - they are all in the same ciruit. I realize that some jet pumps have a gauge screwed into the pump chamber housing instead of a manifold at the tank. If you open a faucet and eventually the flow and pressure drops to near nothing but at that time the gauge is showing 40 PSI or over - either the gauge is not working - or there is a blockage between the faucet and the gauge.
The other possibilities mentioned don't seem to apply. If the tank has become waterlogged - i.e. lost it's air charge (or trapped air) - the pump would cycle on and off every time you turn on the faucet - but the water would still come out at the usual pressure and flow. If the footvalve - or the checkvalve in the submersible pump (if you have one)was bad - the pump would loose its prime, and there were be a time lag quite often when using water. But - if it's exactly as you say - and the water flows fine once the pump starts -but flow and pressure drops near to zero before the pump starts again - then it sounds as if pump cut-in pressure is way too low - or the the water-inlet to the pressure-switch is plugged. I've seen some weird problem with the little inlet to the pressure-switch getting plugged with corrosion.

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Keith-OR

12-19-2005 19:25:48




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 Re: Water Well Problems in reply to john in la, 12-19-2005 18:05:30  
Had to pull my installation/operators manual out for my tank to be sure what it says. I thought I was correct, captive air tanks,precharge is suppose to be your pump kick in (cut in) pressure. Also has a Notice, which I have followed for 25 years, check precharge annually with a common tire gage. Precharge is checked with all water expeled from tank and pump shut off.HTH

Keith



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paul

12-19-2005 18:15:33




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 Re: Water Well Problems in reply to john in la, 12-19-2005 18:05:30  
What kind of pressure tank - with a bladder, or just a simple air cushion?

One possibility is that you do not have much air left - either the bladder ruptered or the air cushion has gone away. You need to add air to replace the cushion (simple) or properly inflate the bladder or replace the ruptured one.

Something that happens to me every 10-15 years - my pressure switch is on a 1/4 inch elbowed pipelet - as is my pressure guage. These pipelets will fill up with crud & scale & rust. And block off the little pipe, so neither the gauge or the switch get proper pressure readings. Need to clean out or replace these.

As well, your pressure guage can be bad. That also happens every 10 years or so.

--->Paul

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ustabfarmer

12-19-2005 18:14:19




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 Re: Water Well Problems in reply to john in la, 12-19-2005 18:05:30  
hey John! Merry Christmas!! I used to have that happen about every seven years or so. Every time it happened I had to replace the foot valve at the bottom of the well. It gets stuck and the water drains back down the line. Hope this helps, this is no time to be without water.



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MarkB_MI

12-19-2005 18:14:13




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 Re: Water Well Problems in reply to john in la, 12-19-2005 18:05:30  
If your tank has a bladder, this will happen if the switch is set to come on at a lower pressure than the precharge of the tank. The tank precharge needs to be at least 2 psi less than the cuton pressure.



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