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Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternator-2

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old

12-22-2005 16:58:41




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Guess every body is missing my question. Alternator is already there just not wired up correctly. This is on a Case 580B with a factory 12 volt system. The alternator is a delco. The # 1 terminal wire isn't hooked to any thing at this time so I know the alternator isn't chargeing the battery. I need idaes of how to hook up the wires correctly with out replaceing the alternator and with out adding a switch. I.E. Don't want to spend any $$ I have the wire etc on hand. But no switch.

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RodInNS

12-23-2005 12:34:18




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to old, 12-22-2005 16:58:41  
Another way of doing this without buying a switch is to make a manual switch... Just take a male and female insulated quick connector. You know the round ones? I've done that to get out of a spot, but I hate leaving it like that, because I never remember to unplug the thing when I'm done for the day, anf there's always the chance that a loose wire could ground when left unattended. But provided the guy remembers these things, and is careful about hot wires, he should be fine. I'm not advocating this route by any means, but it will work.

Rod

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derrick127

01-08-2008 15:03:50




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to RodInNS, 12-23-2005 12:34:18  
got a astro van took out the v6 and auto trans. replaced it with a v8 and aa T-5 5 speed trans. hade to rewire the hole thing and I dont know how to wire the altenator. I"m not getting power to the battery it is not charging. help me please.



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Hugh MacKay

12-23-2005 03:23:53




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to old, 12-22-2005 16:58:41  
old: I tend to keep these things rather simple. My first alternator conversion was my Farmall Super A. I had a new 6 volt battery and the old generator packed up. I asked auto electric shop guy to get me going quick. He said, " quick with that old generator will be two weeks as I don't have the parts, quick for an alternator will be 5 min as all I have to do to a new Delco 10IS is change internal wires to make it charge 6 volt.

At 6 volt I was faced with finding a way to excit alternator, without diodes or resistor lights. Remember quick was the order of the day, not experimenting to see what lights or diodes would work. I hooked battery to main terminal of alternator. He also gave me one of those pigtails that plug into side terminals. I hooked one wire to main terminal and the other I left as a jump wire I could touch on frame to excit alternator. It worked great.

A few days later when I had a bit more time, I made this more perminent. Since the SA had an extra wire in harness, I hooked it to my jump wire, drilled a hole on dash for a push button type switch and grounded the open side. Now all I have to do when I start tractor is hit that push button switch and system is charging. I watch the amp gauge as I do this, thus I know what is happening. Amp gauges don't show a charge very long after starting a SA that fires up quick. That was almost 13 years ago and the system has worked perfect ever since. No fooling around with those damn diodes or lights. I have since converted 130 and 140 to 12 volt alternators and used the same type push button for exciting alternators. I had a light and diodes on 130 for awhile and something was always not working. I soon said the He## with that.

An interesting note, quite often these start charging on their own without pushing button even at idle. 140 about 90% of time, SA about 50% and 130 about 20%. I wouldn't fool with being fancy, most of these old girls need warmup time anyhow, you may as well have something to do during that time.

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jdemaris

12-23-2005 05:56:09




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to Hugh MacKay, 12-23-2005 03:23:53  
No insult intended here, but I think the word "quick" has different meaning for different people. For me, "quick" and taking a trip or two to the alternator shop don't go together in the same sentence. About the Delco 10SI or 12SI alternators not needing any field - that's true in a way but not always useful. As is, with the standard OEM internal regulator, they will self-excite - but usually not until they are spinning at 2500 - 3000 RPM. So, that does not work great on a slow-running tractor engine, even if you put a tiny drive pulley on the alternator in order to speed it up. Now, when tractor companies use alternators, they usually did the opposite and put a big pulley on it to slow the alternator down - this makes it last longer and also provides more surface area for the belt to grip. On many Deere tractors, the alternator pulley was 2/3 the size of the crank-pulley, so at engine idle the alternator was only spinning around 600 RPM. To reach 3000 RPM - you'd have to override the governor and probably blow the engine up. In regard to the hesitance some people have with using diodes - I don't get it. They are very reliable - but like anything else - what you use needs to be rated to handle the job. For those that don't like diodes - well - I guess then you'd better not use any alternators because they rely on many diodes to create direct-current as an end product. Also, "experimentation" is not necessary if accurate facts are available. I ask questions in order to avoid experimenting. There is no "one right way" to change over to an alternator, but here are plenty of wrong ways and overly complicated ways to do it. It all depends on what you want as an end result. As far as I can tell, OLD asked a pretty straight forward question - installation without adding a switch. In regard to the many ideas proposed - some will work great and some won't. In regard to the momentary field-exciter switches - either manual or those operated by a oil-pressure - they work if done correctly - but they will NOT work if you have a charge-indicator light. With most of my equipment, as a matter of personal choice, I use a ammeter and a charge-light. This requires a field circuit with a diode in it, or, an ignition switch with both an ACC and a IGN pole to keep the two circuits separated when in OFF position. From what I've seen - the highest level of simplicity is to install a self-exciting internal voltage-regulator. It's a 15 minute job. I don't like them - but they do work fine. I also rarely use Delcos anymore. The little Hitachis as used on older Subarus take up less room, last longer, and get wired the same.

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Hugh MacKay

12-23-2005 06:46:39




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to jdemaris, 12-23-2005 05:56:09  
jdemaris: Ah, yes all that is fine, but remember in 1992 when I installed two of my alternators, much of this information was not as readily available as it is today. For your information "QUICK" down on the farm meant having it going yesterday. Down time with a tractor has always spelled big bucks to me.

Yes I do like some of what you speak of particularly those smaller alternators. I think along those lines old and I come from the same school, "You don't throw it out until it serves no usefull function, and you certainly don't change for the sake of change alone." I will gladly listen to anyone, but you better be prepared to give me a 15 year absolute guarentee on alternator ideas. I did have my first tractor job in 1948. You don't sell this old bird any pie in the sky unproven ideas.

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jdemaris

12-23-2005 07:10:10




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to Hugh MacKay, 12-23-2005 06:46:39  
I guess I'm not quite sure what you mean. I own two farms, I have over 30 tractors full-size and over a 100 small ones, I owned my first tractor in the 50s, and the information I've been using - and talking about has mostly been available since the 1970s. I'm well aware of what the word "quick" means on the farm or in the woods. When you say that such information was not redily availble in 1992 - I don't know how to respond. It certainly was available - perhaps not on the Internet though. Back in the late 50s, 60s, and up through the 70s there were all kinds of books and magazines available that dealt with making changes in electrical systems - usually in the context of engine swapping in cars and trucks (back when it was popular). I bought many a car in the 60s that came with a generator and we swapped in an alternator - using the info from those books. Same goes for my 1963 MG I put a 215 Buick V-8 into, and my 1964 Sunbeam Tiger with a Ford 260 V-8 and modern alternator system.

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Hugh MacKay

12-23-2005 07:57:19




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to jdemaris, 12-23-2005 07:10:10  
jdemamis: I know what you mean, I have a relatively new Buick LeSabre. That thing has just about every electronic bell and whistle available. A climate control heater-air conditioning, now if I could just get someone to tell me why I have to get out of car, lift the hood and hit the heater fan with my fist every time I want it to start, I would be laughing.

Thankyou, but I will stick with push buttons for exciting alternators on my tractors. Don't talk to this old bird on modern vehicle electrical systems.

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jdemaris

12-23-2005 08:10:07




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 Re: Secret repair tricks in reply to Hugh MacKay, 12-23-2005 07:57:19  
Back in the 50s and 60s there used to be such as thing as automotive-electric repair shops. From my experience, many of people in those places were "old school" at that time, really knew their stuff, and were very eager to answer questions - for free. I used to drive them nuts with my questions. Now - today - you really have to search to find people that have a solid overall knowledge of things. I guess it's all relative. My dad (as a kid) used bug a guy at his local repair shop in the 1920s and 30s. Seems this guy had many "repair tricks" for cars and trucks - especially Model T Fords. As my dad told me, this guy would sometimes put a tent around the car he was working on - so customers who came often to gab or buy gas - could NOT see what he was doing. I guess any innovations he came up with were his "trade" secrets. With the Model T, you needed them (I've got a 1920). Now - today - with information so easily shared all over the world in a minute's notice - via the Internet - are things better? Not necessarily - yes it's is now easy to share good information - but it is all very easy to send out the crap along with it.

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souNdguy

12-22-2005 22:09:40




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to old, 12-22-2005 16:58:41  
Guess the old marker lamp to the ignition switch would work .. You probably have those laying around, or something similar.

Remember to loop the #2 over to the charge stud.

Soundguy



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old

12-23-2005 07:20:31




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to souNdguy, 12-22-2005 22:09:40  
Sound thats the problem. Its diesel and it doesn't have an ignition switch. If it had one I could hook it up in my sleep. LOL



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souNdguy

12-23-2005 20:49:52




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to old, 12-23-2005 07:20:31  
Unless it is a hand crank job.. what does it use to activate the starter solenoid? a momentary switch ? I'd try that to see if the starter speed was enough to get it chargini, with #1 powered witht he start switch. otherwise I'd add a 'horn' button somewhere to just give it a push after starting to excite the alternator.. then forget about the diode or idiot lamp.

Soundguy



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old

12-23-2005 21:38:33




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to souNdguy, 12-23-2005 20:49:52  
RPM way to slow to get it going. I have got the guy to op for a key type switch so now I think I will have no problem. Thanks



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souNdguy

12-29-2005 06:44:01




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to old, 12-23-2005 21:38:33  
Sounds like the least hassle way to go.

have fun

Soundguy



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old

12-29-2005 08:58:16




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to souNdguy, 12-29-2005 06:44:01  
I completely rewired it the other day, I remove more wires then should even been on the poor old thing. I think some one got wire happy on this and when something stopped working they just added a new wire and left to old ones there. I did put on a new key type switch and once we put the radiator back on I'll see if I did it right and weather or notthe alternator is good or bad.



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RodInNS

12-22-2005 19:13:55




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to old, 12-22-2005 16:58:41  
Old,

If you go to the local parts store, NAPA, or wherever, tell them you want a fuel pump switch. This is a low oil pressure cutoff switch for the fuel pump. The switch itself will be a 3 prong job. One terminal is for the normal oil pressure switch (idiot light circuit), which is normally open under pressure (ground for no oil pressure, light comes on). The other 2 terminals are normally closed under pressure, which can supply power to a fuel pump, or in this case, the alternator. Just run a power wire from a terminal block or power source (alternator BAT terminal), through this pressure switch, and then up to the alternator. I guess it wouldn't hurt to stick an inline fuse in there, but I don't. There's no need for resistors or any of that crap, just a straight power feed to excite the alt. I can't see any other way to accomplish this *neatly* without installing a switch, unless there is some sort of ignition/instrument switch that can be wired into. The last pressure switch I got for that job cost about 10 bucks at NAPA. HTH.

Rod

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John T

12-22-2005 17:51:06




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to old, 12-22-2005 16:58:41  
Old, If its a Delco 10 SI, she MUST have excitation voltage present on the lil No. 1R terminal to charge. I supply that from a 12 volt switched on (when tractors on) source with an in line 10 ohms current limiting protection resistor. The lil No 2 sense terminal can wire up to the big main output terminal. If on a diesel you could run that excitation circuit through an oil pressure switch (normally open closes upon oil pressure) so its connected to the alternator ONLY when shes running.

John T

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old

12-22-2005 18:10:08




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to John T, 12-22-2005 17:51:06  
Finally, I knew there was a way to do it just wasn't sure how. If it had a switch I could do it in my sleep but since it only had the starter button I wasn't sure how I was going to do it. Thought about hooking it to the soliniod but figured if I did so it might back feed and keep the starter turning. I'll have to look to see if it has an eletric oil sender which if it does would work well. Ya its a Delco 10SI

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John T

12-23-2005 05:56:48




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to old, 12-22-2005 18:10:08  
The old style hydraulic pressure activated brake light switches were I believe?? 2 pole SPST Normally Open that closed when there was brake oil pressure present, I think some had 1/8 inch pipe threads, that might be east to plumb up somewhere in an oil line or port or passage. If you insist on not using any added switch, isnt there SOMEPLACE on any ON/OFF switches that are hot ONLY when switched on??? If so try them PROVIDED theres not any feed back or cross activation problems.

John T

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jdemaris

12-22-2005 20:10:42




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to old, 12-22-2005 18:10:08  
If you find a way to do it using an existing oil-pressure sender, repost - I'd like to hear about it. I don't see how it can work. Most OEM oil senders send a ground signal back to the gauge, not a positive 12 volts. But, yes you can buy two-pole switches and use them for swithing current off and on by oil pressure - but, as you described, you wanted to know how to do this WITHOUT adding any switches - and an oil pressure switch is a switch. You can buy a oil-pressure switch that is normally open, but closes when oil pressure exceeds 2-6 PSI and has 1/8 X 27 threads - NAPA part # OP6118

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jdemaris

12-22-2005 17:22:48




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 Re: I understand your question . . . in reply to old, 12-22-2005 16:58:41  
You didn't say what model alternator, but I'll assume it is a 10SI or a 12SI with a plug on top for a two-prong connector - marked #1 and #2. And I'll assume you know for sure that it has the original volage regulator inside of it. #2 can be hooked to the big output terminal. But - #1 is the exciter wire and it must get some battery current to get the alternator to start charging. Once it does start charging, power is no longer necessary in that circuit. But, if you do not have a switch, and leave it hot all the time, it will drain the battery. And yes - I understand what you said about not having a switch. For your situation, usually the voltage regulator inside the alternator is changed over to the self-exciting type. Then, you don't have to hook any wires to it - as someone else already mentioned. Once that type of regulator is installed, it is usually referred to a "one wire alternator" for obvious reasons. Now, if you refuse to spend any money on adding anything - and want it to work without using magic - you can hook #2 to the big output terminal, leave #1 not hooked to anything, and every time you start the tractor -take a jumper-wire and momentarily put 12 volts to the #1 terminal. It will then charge fine until you get done using the tractor and shut it off. I could mention some other convoluted ways of doing it - but they all require extra parts.

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old

12-22-2005 18:14:21




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 Re: I understand your question . . . in reply to jdemaris, 12-22-2005 17:22:48  
Well its not that I don't want to spend the $$ but since its not my tractor and have to do it his way I'm limited as to how I do it. Ya its a Delco 10SI. I was thinking about hooking the #1 wire to the soliniod but was afriad it might back feed the soliniod and keep the starter turning which would be very bad.



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jdemaris

12-22-2005 20:00:02




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 Re: I understand your question . . . in reply to old, 12-22-2005 18:14:21  
I guess you could wire up the #1 terminal to the starter-solenoid as long as you put a diode in the line. If you don't have one laying around, you can buy a 3 amp diode for around 75 cents at Radio Shack. But . . . you will only be sending current to the field when the engine is cranking - so I suspect the alternator won't be turning fast enough to start charging until the engine starts - and at that point - you won't be sending field current anymore. It's a 15 minute job to install one of those self-exciting regulators into your alternator - but they probably cost $20-$30 - I haven't checked lately. In regard to the diodes, I use them with most of my alternator hookups even with a key-switch, to prevent backfeed into the ignition circuit. I just recently put a Delco 10SI on my Case 580CK diesel - and it woudn't shut off until I put the diode in. But, if I had left it with the manual shut-off on the injection pump, I wounldn't of had the problem. I had installed an electric shut-off solenoid - and that's why it suffered from backfeed. Hey - come to think of it - does the tractor have a headlight switch? Hook the d*mn field to that.

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old

12-22-2005 20:35:21




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 Re: I understand your question . . . in reply to jdemaris, 12-22-2005 20:00:02  
I keep diodes around because I do a lot of the 6 volt to 12 volts things and don't like to use the idiot lights. I'll talk to the guy tomorrow and may get him to have me put in a switch and remove the push botton starter switch, also that way he will have a key and then nowbody will be able to steal it as easy. Right now all you have to do is push the button to start it.



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Dixieland

12-22-2005 17:17:25




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to old, 12-22-2005 16:58:41  
Old you don"t need a switch on a deisel because you don"t have a coil to supply with it. Just run a # 10 gauge stranded wire from the batt terminal on the alternator to one side of your ammeter and run a # 10 gauge from the other side of the ammeter to the battery. click here and go to diagram 7.



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Bob

12-22-2005 23:18:32




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to Dixieland, 12-22-2005 17:17:25  
Dixie,

As long as you're sending him to Bob M's diagram site, why not send him to diagram # 10? Ignore the magneto, and it's perfect for the job!



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jdemaris

12-22-2005 17:32:07




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 Re: Need some ideas on how to hook up an alternato in reply to Dixieland, 12-22-2005 17:17:25  
If he is working with a standard Delco 10SI or 12SI, what you just stated will not work. The alternator needs exciter/field current hooked to #1 terminal - and without it, it will not charge. I see your diagrams - but unless I'm missing something, you are referring to an alternator that has a self-exciting regulator installed into it. I've worked on many diesels that do indeed need switched field current. Being diesel or gas has nothing to do with it.

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