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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

bio diesel yes or no

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ggjjon

02-09-2006 19:53:46




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would like some input on bio diesel are ford and dodge dealers tell us if we use bio diesel in are trucks it will void warranty .we have 2004 cummins that injectors are bad with 60.000 miles dodge warranty up to 100.000 miles they will not warranty because we used bio diesel, they sent injectors in to factory. said no way. also ford is same way how is it that fuel that is made here in good old usa can not use. I wander if anyone else out there with new equipment having same problem.I would think that american made units would support american fuel. what a disgrace. please check with dealerships see if they say same thing be for you get big supprise like we did. lets get some comeback on this. any suggestions.

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Tyler from UT

02-11-2006 21:57:50




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 Re: bio diesel yes or no in reply to ggjjon, 02-09-2006 19:53:46  
Lets clear this up Dodge dont warranty anything with the cummins motor. Cummins them selfs do. Now when i was looking at it you have to have more than just your one filter, you had to retrofit a kit to your vehical, also your maint. would double now i also read that soy is semi corrosive. Id say use plenty of injector cleaner. Now an inline pump would not produce the needed PSI for the injectors to work or your injector pump would take a dump ive seen those darn things lose a lift pump and the injector pump tries to pick up the slack and takes a dump its self and vise versa. When i was first looking at making my own bio for the conversion kit for my truck and the kit to start i figured it would take about 2,000 gallons to just start paying for its self and that would take me four years to burn not to mention thats if the oil was free, also you have to buy more stuff along the way to make more so really how long would it take or how many gallons would you have to make????? Just my opinion you cant blaim cummins because they didnt desighn the engine to burn the bio. -Tyler

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Mark - IN.

02-10-2006 21:15:27




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 Re: bio diesel yes or no in reply to ggjjon, 02-09-2006 19:53:46  
Good subject. I know little or nothing about it, but have seriously considered looking into it for both Dodges and both Deeres.

I've never get chances to talk to the Edison mechanics anymore, but Edison over in Illinois has been running it now for the better part of a decade. They began running it as a mix with diesel, I think 50/50, but the tags on their fleet tanks all now say biodiesel, and I'm thinking that it's not blended anymore. But I could be wrong. One thing that astounded me was the cost per gallon, since they buy by bulk. I don't remember as its been months, but I happened to see an invoice to be paid, and it wasn't cheap. I don't remember the cost, but it floored me at the time, that I remember. Maybe they're locked into a distributer or something, but what I saw on that invoice wasn't cheaper than fossil diesel at the time, not even close. Next time I see one of their mechanics, I'll pin his/her ear down about wrench time as compared to fossil diesel.

Mark

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Jim in NS.

02-10-2006 09:01:19




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 Re: bio diesel yes or no in reply to ggjjon, 02-09-2006 19:53:46  
Read in the paper recently that the city of Halifax stopped using bio-diesel in city buses. It was apparently screwing up the injectors in the cummins engines.



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jdemaris

02-10-2006 06:40:34




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 Good thing getting ruined in reply to ggjjon, 02-09-2006 19:53:46  
Some injection pumps require more lubricant than others, and some fuel has less lubricosity than others. In-line pumps can take much more punishment than distributor pumps - so when you're fooling around with different fuels, you are much better off with an engine that uses and in-line pump. GM and Ford use distributor pumps - at least the older ones, so with them the fuel is critical. In fact, even standard pump diesel fuel can ruin them in extreme cold conditions, so Stanadyne offeres special "Artic rated" repair parts for such environments. Now, with injectors - I'm not up on what is used now with the newer "common rail" systems. The older pintle injectors work fine with bio-fuel. You mentioned scewing around with a Japanese diesel powered Chevy (Duramax). My neighbor put farm fuel (dyed diesel) in his and it would barely run. Had to drain the tank and flush the system to get it going again. I don't know if a fuel-color sensor did it, or perhaps a sulfur detector? So, how cooking grease will work in it, I don't know. Diesel weighs more than gasoline, thus there is more mileage potential. Home-made fuel from grease weighs more than pump diesel, so it offers more mileage potential than pump diesel. But, with the cost of the newer fuel-injection components used now to meet emmission standards, it seems to be a much more reasonable approach to use an older diesel with nice, straight-forward mechanical fuel injection. Pre 94 Ford or Chevy, not sure what year for the Dodge-Cummins. And to be even more reliable, find something with an in-line pump. None of the Chevy or Ford diesel trucks have in-lines. My Chevy Chevette diesel does though (I think). Same with the Isuzu troopers and little trucks with diesels and maybe Mercedes? Somewhere I'm sure you can find lubricosity ratings for different fuels at different temperatures. The key issue is probably what happens to bio-fuel when it gets cold and thick. A company that is giving warranties on its parts has no way of knowing how reliable a homemade preheating system will be for a bio-fuel setup (i.e. not factory made). So, if you get one cold morning and your used Mcdonalds cooking grease gels up and screws up your injectors, it seems reasonable that the warranty is voided. It also seems counter-productive to me that many people are adverstising the fact that they are using bio-fuel. All that will do is make "free grease" harder to get, and also get the government involved. In Europe, it is now illegal to use bio-fuel unless you pay tax on it, just as if it was regular pump diesel. In my area, there are grease-uses putting ads in the newspaper, trying to get attention, and form clubs. Makes no sense to me. If you can get free grease somewhere, keep your mouth shut or you're apt to lose your source. Years ago I was gettting free spoiled food from local supermarkets, and spoiled dairy products from a local creamery, and I used it to raise pigs. Then, the local newspaper did a "special interest" story on it. That was the end of a good thing. Shortly thereafter, people were calling in trying to get their share of "free food" and the markets started charging for it at first. Then, a few people started eating it themselves, got sick, and sued the supermarkets! Now they destroy the food since it all got too complicated. Probably won't be too long before someone's engine quits because their "free grease" gels up, and they'll sue Mcdonalds for giving away "dangerous fuel." Then, nobody will be able to get it.

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bitbythebug

02-10-2006 21:07:08




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 Re: Good thing getting ruined in reply to jdemaris, 02-10-2006 06:40:34  
As far as "screwing around with a Duramax", first of all, I don't see any reason why red-untaxed fuel would make a difference in runability. Unless it was in a poorly maintained farm tank that probably has water, rust, dirt, algae, etc. GM does not have the carboned up EGR valve problem that the 6.0 liter powerstrokes have. There is not a fuel color, or sulfur sensor. Hell, who knows. Maybe it was the flux capacititor or the muffler bearings.LOL
So, far the fuel my neighbor and I have been using is B20 from the local gas station. From everything I have heard and read, I personally wouldn't run grease until it has been processed into a fuel grade oil. A good source of info is ebay, key word in BIO DIESEL and hit search. That is something I would like to try it though. I was reading about a guy who has a couple of International 4700's with the Navistar T444E engine. And he runs 50/50 blend of fuel grade grease and petroleum diesel. This is the same engine that Ford used and called the powerstroke until the 6.0 came out. Which is a Navistar VT365. Anyway, the Navistars have a heui fuel system. Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injector. There is not an injector pump or injector lines. According to the International Engine Maintenance manual, for the 6.0, it says, International corporation allows the the use of bio diesel blends at the maximum concentration of B5. (5 percent bio blended with 95 percent petrolem based fuel) The bio diesel must meet either the ASTM D6751 or the European EN14214. Which would have to do with carboning of the EGR valves and the vanes in the variable pitch turbo charger. I wish I knew more about the Cummins, I work on the Internationals for UPS. The mecedes has an inline pump. Sorry for being so long winded.
Dan

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jdemaris

02-11-2006 07:11:14




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 Re: Good thing getting ruined in reply to bitbythebug, 02-10-2006 21:07:08  
There IS some sort of sensor in the Duramax for the untaxed fuel, but I know little about how it works. Dye or sulfur sensor maybe? The guy I mentioned has three diesel trucks and several tractors on his farm, all using the same fuel with no problems. Two of them are older - 1991 and 1992 Dodge Cummins, and the other a new Chevy with the Isuzu "Duramax." He was low on fuel one morning, and put some of his "farm fuel" into it. It went into a "limp mode" and would not go faster than 25 MPH. He drove to the Chevy dealer to complain about his $40,000 truck, and was informed it had a sensor to detect off-road fuel use. They flushed the tank, and it then ran fine. He was also told that such use voids the warranty. Again, I don't know how it works. I did read recently that the new Volkswagen diesels can not be run on fuel with sulfur in it.

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the tractor vet

02-10-2006 06:30:12




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 Re: bio diesel yes or no in reply to ggjjon, 02-09-2006 19:53:46  
Just another way they have of screwen ya over warranty , think it is time to call in the FTC and anyother Goverment org. and a law ferm with about twenty names behind the first and sue the company that make the fuel and also Chrysler Ford and anybody else because you are the one getting screwed just like i did over the bad gas that ate a brand new engine because of low octain . Even the diesel fuel is not of good quality anymore as it will trash out and injection system because of low lube quality. Also along with low quality parts , Lest make it cheeper and charge five times as much . I for one am not into this BIO diesel and alchol gas to try and save a couple pennys and end up just where your at and hoppen that the warranty will bail ya out . I worked in several dealerships and saw first hand how they like to wessel out of payen for there cheepness or screw ups i went thru it with a pick up that i bought from the dealer set up by Ford as a snow plow truck and would not go four days of plowen with out the transmission going out and the fight that i had with the dealer and ford and i was a cretified master tech it was ford fault as they ahd forgot to install at the factory 1 clutch and 1 plate in the ft. clutch pack and the dumb mechanic just replaced only what he took out with out checking clearance i had to do it myself and prove to the dealer and Ford that it was there screw up . all i can say is good luck.

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Luke S

02-10-2006 06:26:31




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 Re: bio diesel yes or no in reply to ggjjon, 02-09-2006 19:53:46  
The biodiesel reacts very strange in the high pressure fuel rail on your Cummins. On the older one's with out the HPCR injection(2002 and older) it didn't bother them much. But under the nearly 24,000 psi in the newer fuel rail's it becomes very stringy and starts to do some wierd stuff. Dodge just approved up to the use of B20 (20% Biodiesel, 80% regular diesel), any higher ratio than that and it just won't work in the high pressure fuel rails. At least with today's quality of biodiesel, maybe in the future it will be better.

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Dan in Ore

02-10-2006 04:47:44




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 Re: bio diesel yes or no in reply to ggjjon, 02-09-2006 19:53:46  
There is another alternative out there. www.burnh20.com



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barnrat

02-10-2006 04:38:34




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 Re: bio diesel yes or no in reply to ggjjon, 02-09-2006 19:53:46  
Have a friend who uses B100 in all his diesel equipment from Belarus tractors to 5hp single cylinder engines to his 92 D250 Dodge Ram pickup. He makes the stuff him self out of waste vegtable oil and/or canola that he grows himself. The only problems he had was pluged fuel filters when he first switched and an occasional rubber seal failure. In the winter he blends his B100 with winter pump Diesel and Kerosene to keep it from gelling. I think he said his pickup has over 400,00 miles on it and as far as I know he's had very little work done to it. I don't think the engine has been worked on at all. I do wonder how the engines are warranteed in places like Germany and Cheklosovakia that have only B30 available at the pumps. As far as I know Biodiesel is non corrosive to metal parts and has more lubricity and cleaner than petrol diesel.

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bitbythebug

02-09-2006 20:43:01




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 Re: bio diesel yes or no in reply to ggjjon, 02-09-2006 19:53:46  
Hi, What exactly was the type of bio diesel you were using? That can make a difference on the warranty.
I have found that there is a big difference. Because, "soy" diesel is generaly under refined and is corrosive. I haven't had any problems with actual bio diesel as I run it in my Mercedes Benze 240D. I have been informed to stay away from places that advertise as Soy, and go to where they advertise bio. I have been putting ninety miles a day on my Benze. I also have a nieghbor who is running it in his Duramax and likes it. I am planning on getting a Duramax and asked my local Chevy dealer about it and they said it shouldn't matter. Somewhere, I have an article on the differences in "bio". I will try and find it and get back. Have you checked anywhere else such as other dealers who aren't aware of your specific problem? Maybe there is a service bulletin on those injectors. And they are using the bio diesel as an excuse to get out of warranting your truck. I hope this helps. And now you have me curious, so I am going do some more research too.
Dan

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RN

02-09-2006 20:33:16




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 Re: bio diesel yes or no in reply to ggjjon, 02-09-2006 19:53:46  
The diesel equipment was designed for the fuel available at the time of design and a few years projected standards- most states didn't have a notice about Bio-diesel requirements 5 years back, EPA didn't tell the manufacturer to prepare for different standards. The main concern previously was the proposed low sulfer fuel standard similar to european fuel- seals and pumps were redesigned with that in mind- not the clogging, varnishing oxidation problems showing up with bio-diesel in mass distribution. Don't blame the manufacturer for all the problems. Note that Gasahol when it first came out in late 70s caused some problems in older vehicles, new vehicles are running on 10% ethanol and some are designed to be able to use E85- but this is after 25 years since introduction. A cynical conspiricy believer would say the government and manufacturers are trying to sneakily destroy the older vehicles on the road to make you buy a new, more expensive model and provide them with more money in their pockets. RN.

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