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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

OT: Ethanol Investors?

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Rauville

09-03-2006 06:48:52




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Are any of you getting on the "ethanol bandwagon" by investing?

Our area ethanol plant just had another equity drive, and raised 95 million dollars within 3 days by selling shares at $2 each to local investors.

Since their initial startup equity drive in 2001, they report investors have earned 200% in dividends on their money, and shares have split 18 to 1.

From an outsider's viewpoint, this certainly looks like where we should be putting our money. What do you think, can the ethanol boom continue? Or does every boom end in a "poof", as some suggest?

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sugar bear

09-03-2006 09:42:42




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 Re: OT: Ethanol Investors? in reply to Rauville, 09-03-2006 06:48:52  
a lot of people seem to be against ethanol production isnt it odd the ones around here are all oil companies and gas prices are starting to come down when they are starting to get serious about ethanol in our area.southern illinois



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Jay (ND)

09-03-2006 09:40:00




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 Re: OT: Ethanol Investors? in reply to Rauville, 09-03-2006 06:48:52  
Wilman and Mark nailed it. There will be some plants that survive, but they are going to be near a pipeline. The other plants will go bust.

Our county is looking into putting one up - there goes my tax dollars - 2 hours away from the nearest pipeline.

These out-in-the-middle-of-nowhere plants could barely make it when there were only a few of them. Now that everyone and their sister are putting them up, it's best to sit on the sidelines.

Jay

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wilman

09-03-2006 08:36:33




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 Re: OT: Ethanol Investors? in reply to Rauville, 09-03-2006 06:48:52  
Ethanol is a short term fix for a long term problem. Everybody is getting huge, quick returns now on their money and that is why there are ethanol plants being built all over the country. With ethanol it won't be long before we will have to decide if we want to eat and use corn in other products or just produce ethanol. The Iowa Corn Growers Association has come out and said that there is enough corn to go around for everything but they are being short sided and just thinking about $5 corn. Corn end's up as an ingrediant or used in a lot of different products besides just livestock feed and corn meal. The ethanol by-product called DDG's can only be feed on a limited basis to hogs and chickens but works best with cattle. It also takes a lot of energy to produce ethanol. Once some one comes up with a more effiecient and less expensive way to produce an alternative fuel, a lot of these ethanol plants will be setting empty. I personally think bio mass ethanol and bio diesel is the way to go and is more efficient.

Wil

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MarkB_MI

09-03-2006 08:07:30




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 Re: OT: Ethanol Investors? in reply to Rauville, 09-03-2006 06:48:52  
With so many big companies building ethanol plants, it seems unlikely that the small plants will be able to survive. Currently demand for ethanol is high, but it seems to me that ethanol demand is fairly inelastic. Meaning that once supply exceeds demand, prices will nosedive. The only advantage that small producers have is that they MAY be able to keep their costs low enough to stay profitable. Other than that, the big producers hold all the cards.

Some problems with ethanol economics:

1. Currently, ethanol production is heavily subsidized by a 52 cent per gallon tax credit paid to gasoline producers who add it to gasoline. Take away the tax credit and the economics change significantly. And Congress will have a hard time justifying the tax credit when ethanol production is a thousand times what it is today.

2. Ethanol, unlike petroleum, is generally only shipped by truck. This makes it uneconomical to transport large amounts of ethanol long distances, at least until there is enough demand for ethanol to justify building a pipline infrastructure for ethanol.

3. One reason ethanol is reasonably cheap to produce is that corn is, for all intents and purposes, free. However, the same conditions that will increase ethanol demand (namely high fuel prices) will also drive up the price of corn. This is likely to put the squeeze on ethanol producers who will be faced by high grain prices on one side and price competition from other producers on the other side.

Like most other new industries, there will be a few companies who make big profits early on, while in the end most will be absorbed or put out of business by the big producers.

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john in la

09-03-2006 10:37:49




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 Re: OT: Ethanol Investors? in reply to MarkB_MI, 09-03-2006 08:07:30  
Mark; I want to commend you for a well thought out post.

1. I have seen stations that use 10% ethanol use it when they did not have to just to get the kick back. 10% ethanol raises the octane of gas 2 points so if you use 90% straight regular unleaded and 10% ethanol you get 89 octane. I have seen this 89 octane gas sold out of the 87 octane pump just for the kick back.

2. You can include rail with this but still a lot more than if a pipe line was in place.

3. I wonder how much everyone will love ethanol when a can of corn or all the food products made or grown with corn doubles in price. This goes even further because if I can grow field corn and sell to a ethanol plant then I will stop growing beans ect and every food product will go up.

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MarkB_MI

09-03-2006 11:16:19




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 Re: OT: Ethanol Investors? in reply to john in la, 09-03-2006 10:37:49  
John,

Thanks for your feedback. Yes, you're right: I should have said "truck or rail". And rail transportation is generally cheaper than truck, but still much more expensive than a pipeline.

As far as farmers switching to other crops, it is reasonable to question whether or not growing corn for ethanol is a wise use of our farmland. But that's another argument.



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Leland

09-03-2006 22:02:52




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 Re: OT: Ethanol Investors? in reply to MarkB_MI, 09-03-2006 11:16:19  
Think how much more gas say in Califorina is now since ADM ships alcohol from Decatur IL to the coast by the train car load then figure that somebody is also paying to return a empty car 2500 miles to make the trip again



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buickanddeere

09-03-2006 07:42:59




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 Re: OT: Ethanol Investors? in reply to Rauville, 09-03-2006 06:48:52  
It's far cheaper and takes less tech to just grow an oil seed crop. Then run the seed through a simple press.The oil at up to 500 gallons per acre can run through an ordinary diesel. The oil cake can be fed to various critters. Oil seed lacks the appeal of being a"legal" bootlegger running a still.. No huge energy input into boiling/distillation. Ethanol is the result of politics and subsidies to companies who have bought politicians

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barnrat

09-03-2006 07:14:01




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 Re: OT: Ethanol Investors? in reply to Rauville, 09-03-2006 06:48:52  
They are trying to build an ethanol plant here in western NY. We don't even have enough corn to feed our own livstock let alone an ethanol plant, what a crock. Ethanol is the biggest racket going. Politicians and investors are making a good living on it, but I feel it will be on the backs of farmers and taxpayers.



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Coloken

09-03-2006 06:56:53




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 chicken yard in reply to Rauville, 09-03-2006 06:48:52  
Chicken yard effect: Throw in a handfull of grain and they all come running throw in a rock and they all scatter.



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jddriver

09-03-2006 07:11:13




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 Re: chicken yard in reply to Coloken, 09-03-2006 06:56:53  
I would like to know why there is so much opposition to ethanol but every one is complaining about high gas prices.Steve



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barnrat

09-03-2006 07:18:40




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 Re: chicken yard in reply to jddriver, 09-03-2006 07:11:13  
Corn based ethanol is not a solution to high gas prices. Other biomass based ethanol, maybe. Coal based ethanol, definitely.



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