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O/T electrical question

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37 chief

09-20-2006 16:57:57




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I am installing a new service for a washig machine, dryer, and a freezer. Will a No. 12 wire on a 20 amp breaker handle the load? Thanks for anyhelp, Stan




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John T Dryer Update

09-21-2006 06:47:13




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to 37 chief, 09-20-2006 16:57:57  
WOW, now knowing the dryer is GAS really changes things. If its gas my guess is it only requires a 120 volt circuit versus a 240 as electric dryers might use. There are three options now, but I would still STRONGLY SUGGEST a seperate isolated circuit dedicated for the FREEZER ONLY..... .

OPTION IF YOU HAVE AVAILABLE PANEL SPACE FOR 3 SINGLE POLE BREAKERS AND ARE GONNA DO THIS YOURSELF

1a) You could still run 3 totally seperate 120 volt circuits, one to washer one to dryer one to freezer, and it may be considered by some as "overkill". Each circuit would be fed by a 120 volt single pole 20 amp breaker in the panelboard with 12/3 wire (Black Hot, White Neutral, Bare/Green quipment Ground) to a 120 volt 3 prong grounding type NEMA 20R receptacle for the individual appliance.

OPTION IF YOU ONLY HAVE AVAILABLE PANEL SPACE FOR 2 SINGLE POLE BREAKERS

1b) Run a regualar 120 volt 20 amp circuit (NOT the multi wire) for BOTH the Washer n Dryer. Assuming they are setting side by side, a standard 120 volt 20 amp 3 prong grounding type NEMA 20 R Duplex Receptacle (served by 12/3 wire and a single pole 120 volt 20 amp circuit breaker in the panel) would have the 2 outlets for both appliances n youre offfff fff to the races. NOTE this depends on the actual loads but may work !! Then run another seperate 120 volt 20 amp circuit for the Freezer with a 120 volt single pole 20 amp breaker and 12/3 wire.


OPTION IF YOU HAVE 3 SPACES AVAILABLE IN THE PANEL AND PREFERABLY GONNA HAVE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN DO THE WORK

2) You could run whats called a "multi wire branch circuit" to serve BOTH the washer n dryer. That would require a 2 pole 20 amp circuit breaker in the panel and 4 wires, 2 (Red n Black) Hots, one White Neutral, one Bare/Green Equipment Ground) to the 120 volt 20 amp NEMA 20R 3 prong grounding type appliance receptacles.

NOTE the Multi Wire Branch Circuit of 4 wires works by serving one receptacle (say dryer) on Phase A (one leg of 120 volts to Neutral) and the other (say washer) on Phase B (other leg of 120 volts) AND A SINGLE COMMON WHITE NEUTRAL. If the currents were equal on each Phase leg (NOT withstanding different lag angles caused by inductive or capacitive non pure resistive loads) the Neutral current would be zero. However, since the loads are high inductive being motors with poor power factors, there could well be some Neutral current even if the pure resistive loads were equal..... .. That circuit might be considered as more hazardous to a non electrician, since 240 volts (twice the voltage of a regular 120 volt branch circuit) is present across the 2 hot phase A and B wires while only 120 volts is present between the hot phase wire and Neutral (or ground) on the regular 120 volt branch circuit. It may be possible to use a duplex receptacle having the ties removed so each outlet can be served by a different phase wire, say Phase A Black feeding the top receptacle n Phase B Red feeding the bottom WITH A COMMON WHITE NEUTRAL and the bare/green equipment ground.

Then, of course, the other circuit for the Freezer ONLY

3) I WOULD NOT use this option, I doubt it would handle alllll lll 3 loads (depends on diversity and actual loads, but if freezer cycled at same time washer n dryer were running and/or cycled, breaker may well trip),,,,, ,,I suspect it may NOT be NEC permissible,,,,, ,,

It would be one 120 volt 20 amp circuit for alllll l three loads ITS A BAD IDEA AND LIKELY NOT EVEN PERMISSIBLE AND MAY NOT HANDLE ALL LOADS SCRATCH IT LOL

Hope this helps, I guess the options would be decided based upon how many spaces are available in the panel and if you or an electrician are gonna wire a multi wire branch circuit should that option be used.

Best wishes n God Bless, keep safe

John T Retired EE

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37 chief

09-21-2006 10:47:37




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to John T Dryer Update, 09-21-2006 06:47:13  
John, thanks for the reply. I think I will just add another circuit for the freezer. This is a very old house over 100 years. I am trying to straighten out years of add on's. I replaced the meter box a few years ago, which was done with a permit, since the power co got involved. Electricity was brought to the house in the 50's. I am replacing some of the old romex cloth covered wire. Might still be good, but doesn't look good. There is a walking space under the house so it is not hard getting at the wire. Thanks, John, others that replied to my question. Stan

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willie j

09-21-2006 05:02:43




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to 37 chief, 09-20-2006 16:57:57  
Gotta jump in here, although someone will dispute me. Just went out to the shop to check a sample.
There is a small difference in description between extension cord wire & building wire.
3/12 ext wire has black-hot, white-neutral, green-ground. It does not have a bare wire.
3/12 building wire has black-hot, red-hot, white-neutral. It does not have green or bare.
3/12 w/ground (marked on the jacket) will add the bare ground. The ground in this case will be 1 wire size smaller than the hot/neutral wires. Eg- in 3/12 w/gnd, the gnd will be #14.
It is perfectly legal, proper, & safe to run 3/12 w/gnd to feed 2 circuits. 1- black hot, 2-red hot, tie the white neutral to both outlets, tie the bare gnd to both. Neutral & gnd are not tied to each other. However sometimes it is easier to run seperate 2/12 w/gnd to each outlet so the box doesn't get so crowded.
Then there is what is commonly called Romex. That stuff went out with whip sockets, single trees & high button shoes. Romex is that old rubber insulated, fabric jacket stuff. What is commonly called Romex is type NM, (Non Metalic) sheath, for use in dry, inside building locations. Type UF is for use in damp, wet, even direct burial locations.

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willie j

09-21-2006 18:29:23




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to willie j, 09-21-2006 05:02:43  
OOPS
Must have had a senior monent this morning, but nobody caught it. Power type wire is normally marked with wire size first, then number of wires- 12/3, not 3/12 like I wrote . Telephone cable is marked with number of "pairs" first, then wire size- 400/22 is 400 pair, 22 gauge.
Sorry about that.



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huntingreen

09-20-2006 20:43:31




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to 37 chief, 09-20-2006 16:57:57  
gas dryer only needs 110 volt circuit. (3) 110 volt 20 amp circuits would be the ideal. If you are not familiar with the multi-wire (3) (insulated and a ground) circuit don't do it.



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37 chief

09-20-2006 23:51:09




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to huntingreen, 09-20-2006 20:43:31  
The three wire circuit sounds interesting. Since I don't know how it is done I better not guess. I probably will just run another circuit, since I have another 20 amp breaker available. Stan



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MarkB_MI

09-20-2006 19:49:09




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to 37 chief, 09-20-2006 16:57:57  
Freezer should definitely be on a dedicated 20 amp circuit.

Washer and dryer can share a 20 amp circuit, but a better arrangement is to put them on opposite legs of a three-wire circuit. (Each leg has a separate 20 amp circuit breaker.) The main advantage of the three-wire circuit is that when both appliance are running, each gets more voltage than it would get on a dedicated two-wire circuit. (This is because there is less current flowing through the neutral, which eliminates some of the voltage drop.)

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Gerald J.

09-20-2006 18:52:11




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to 37 chief, 09-20-2006 16:57:57  
Saving on breakers by using fewer is false economy. It can lead to poor electric service. It depends on there being a diversity of loads that aren't likely to be running at the same time. In the case of these three loads, its a sure thing that the dryer will be running while the next load of wash is running and the freezer will come on according to its thermostat, so its quite likely all three will be running at the same time part of the wash day.

So there isn't diversity and it would be better (some may call it overkill, but other than cost there's no harm) to run separate circuits and separate breakers even if you have to hand an extension on the main breaker box.

In addition, on the freezer circuit, put a night light. That way you can see if there's power to the freezer without having to wait for the frozen stuff to thaw. Keep spare bulbs for the night light. Think of how much the food in the freezer is worth, you want its power to be the most reliable so you don't want to chance it's breaker being tripped by the combination of freezer, dryer and washer starting at the same time after a power outage. Keep 'em separated.

Gerald J.

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37 chief

09-20-2006 18:27:02




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to 37 chief, 09-20-2006 16:57:57  
I failed to mention the dryer is gas, and electricity is for fan,and drum belt motor only. Stan



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John T

09-20-2006 18:14:51




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to 37 chief, 09-20-2006 16:57:57  
Chief, What you need is at least two but preferably three seperate branch circuits fed from your main panelboard, one for each appliance (or 1 circuit for dryer and 1 circuit for the freezer plus washer, but still subject to the actual load currents and local NEC authority, see below)

For a typical 240 volt dryer branch circuit, you would need to use a 2 pole 30 amp 240 volt circuit breaker at the panel and run 10/3 wire (2 hots and one equipment ground) to the 240 volt 30 amp 3 pole dryer receptacle.

A freezer (failry decent load) ought to have its own 120 volt 20 amp branch circuit, which requires a 120 volt 20 amp single pole circuit breaker in the panel and use 12/3 (1 Black Hot, 1 White Neutral, 1 Green or Bare Equipment ground) wire to a standard 120 volt 20 amp NEMA 20R duplex receptacle.

A washing machine uses the same as above, its a 120 volt 20 amp branch circuit with 12/3 wire (1 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground) serving a 120 volt typical household NEMA 20R duplex receptacle.

NOTE It may be possible (depends on actual full load currents of the appliances and local NEC authority) to use a single 20 amp branch circuit to feed BOTH the freezer and washing machine, it would use the same 1 pole 20 amp 120 volt circuit breaker in the panel and use 12/3 wire (1 black hot, 1 white neutral, 1 bare/green equipment ground) but just have a receptacle for each appliance (i.e. 2 receptacles on the single common branch circuit) or even a single duplex receptacle if the appliances were side by side.

HOWEVER I would prefer a freezer to be served by its own dedicated 20 amp 120 volt branch circuit with nooooo o other receptacles or loads on that circuit, plus the load sizes or the NEC may require the freezer to be on its own circuit regardless. Thats how Id do it personally

Best wishes,

John T Retired Electrical Engineer

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po po

09-20-2006 17:11:49




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to 37 chief, 09-20-2006 16:57:57  
no dryer needs to be on a circuit by itself.dryer needs 10/3 wire



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HAS

09-20-2006 17:10:22




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 Re: O/T electrical question in reply to 37 chief, 09-20-2006 16:57:57  
You need to have 3 separate circuits. 20 amp #12 copper for the freezer and washer and a 30 amp #10 copper for the dryer.



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