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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

What is a pony??

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riggsjr

01-12-2007 15:14:59




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I am new to all this...What does it mean when they say the pony has been removed?




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NEsota

01-13-2007 10:32:19




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 Re: What is a pony?? in reply to riggsjr, 01-12-2007 15:14:59  
Billy NY, Thank you for your detailed post on the safeguards the pony has to keep from getting destroyed. I am sure that there are others who learned from it. Where did I hear what I heard? At the coffee shop, five or ten years ago. I understood that this was being done on a crawler type tractor, which I referred to as a Cat. Do not know actual brand or the vintage. At the time I heard it, I would have made a judgment, based on the players, that is who was telling the story and who the operator was, as to weather or not it was true. The fact that after seeing the pony post, I remembered the account I had heard, leads me to think that I believed at the time that it was true. Otherwise it would have been forgotten.

My judgments are subject to some error, which is sometimes I believe when I should not and sometimes that is reversed. On this forum, I jest a bit at times and do not wish to be 100% predictable but what I said I heard about the pony, I was serious about.

Just now I reread your post and want to thank you for your gentleness in reining me in. A second though I had is this, and maybe I protest too much but there can always, or almost always, be an exception to the rule. Equipment can be modified in the field. If more support is found for my for my original contention you will see a full page ad in the Wall St. Journal or I will post back here.

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RAB

01-13-2007 08:58:56




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 Re: What is a pony?? in reply to riggsjr, 01-12-2007 15:14:59  
Pony? It"s a donkey this side of the pond.
Regards, RAB



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NEsota

01-12-2007 22:26:48




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 Re: What is a pony?? in reply to riggsjr, 01-12-2007 15:14:59  
Have heard of Cat operators running the pony engine to help the main engine when under heavy load. Do not think it should be tried at home.



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Billy NY

01-13-2007 03:33:53




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 Re: What is a pony?? in reply to NEsota, 01-12-2007 22:26:48  
Hate to dispel a rumor, and am curious where you heard this one.

It is physically impossible for the starting engine to increase or add power to the diesel while it is running, the centrifugal force of the diesel disengages the starting engine's pinion, if it didn't, it would overspeed the pony and toss a rod, and sometimes the spring on the pinion latches is out of adjustment and it will release too soon, just one piston has to fire and it will disengage, you have to hold the pinion lever engaged when it's out of adjustment, manually release it as soon as the main fires, disenage it. Those little splash lube, old technology, but high rev starting engines don't tolerate too much, have to keep the oil super clean, check for gasoline contaminating the oil, the old Zenith carbs can leak down and fill yer pony crankcase until it leaks out the dipstick if you don't turn the gas petcock off at the sediment bowl, and it's also a smart move to drain the bowl as soon as it fires, so it don't leak down while yer runnin it. Lot of tricks to them but well worth having, when working well, one spin on the handcrank an it will fire off on the first crank, down into the 40's no problem, colder, nice to have an electric start option.

Although not a good practice, I have heard of people using the starting engine, to move a dead caterpillar tractor a shot distance, when the diesel would not fire, would have to keep the compression off anyways, no way it would turn the main under compression and also have enough to move it. Not a good thing to do but apparently can be done, probably only on the flat on hard ground.

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Rick(IA)

01-12-2007 18:00:57




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 Re: What is a pony?? in reply to riggsjr, 01-12-2007 15:14:59  
Awwww, everybody's been so good and giving straight answers. I wuz gonna say that a pony is a small, usually ill-tempered, hay burning manure generator.



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Walt Davies

01-12-2007 22:20:56




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 Re: What is a pony?? in reply to Rick(IA), 01-12-2007 18:00:57  
Hey! I got one of those.
Walt



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KEH

01-12-2007 15:27:30




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 Re: What is a pony?? in reply to riggsjr, 01-12-2007 15:14:59  

Older diesels such as the John Deere 70 had a small gas engine called a pony motor in place of an electric starter to start the diesel motor. Gas engine usually had an electric starter, though I have a vague recollection of some old, small Catipi;;ars having a rope start. Anyway, the procedure was (is) to crank the pony motor, run it at proper speed, then engage the gas engine to spin the diesel. The pony motor made a powerful starter, but they were expensive to work on and cost a lot to replace so if you get an old diesel to restore and the pony motor is missing its not good.

KEH

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RustyFarmall

01-12-2007 15:26:56




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 Re: What is a pony?? in reply to riggsjr, 01-12-2007 15:14:59  
I'll take a shot at this. The John Deere 2 cylinder diesels were very hard to start with an electric starting motor, so they were equipped with a small gasoline (pony) motor. The pony was started with an electric starter, and then the (pony) was used to start the large diesel engine. In recent years those pony motors have become worn out, and repair parts are next to obsolete. Technical advances have been made with electric starters in recent years, to the point that an electric starter is now a better way to start the tractor than the old, worn out pony motor, so the (pony) has been (removed), and replaced with an electric starter.

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buickanddeere

01-12-2007 16:12:44




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 Re: What is a pony............the best that's what in reply to RustyFarmall, 01-12-2007 15:26:56  
A Deere starting engine can be rebuilt with off the shelf parts of components easily made in a lathe. As for cranking power? A Starting engine will pre-heat, then crank a diesel at rpms an electric starter could never hope to. As for cost? Compare the ENTIRE cost of the conversion plus replacing a pair of 1000CCA batteries every 2-4 years. Plus count up the number of inquiries on this site of tinkerers trying to re-wire the electrical system. Most of these conversions end up either pull started or have the batteries charged with a 120V Walmart special charger. A few fires and melted wiring harnesses too. Most starting engines only require a water pump seal, new coils because some dip left the ignition switched on. And clean plus rebuild the fuel system from tank to carb of 46 plus years of gum/varnish/dirt.

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John Hurran

01-13-2007 05:53:20




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 Re: What is a pony............the best that's what in reply to buickanddeere, 01-12-2007 16:12:44  
If you want to "Tinker" with a pony motor go right ahead--I would change over to electric start in a heart beat and they are not hard at all to wire.
Been there and done that with no problems at all. Best thing I ever done.



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buickanddeere

01-13-2007 14:21:50




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 Re: What is a pony............the best that's what in reply to John Hurran, 01-13-2007 05:53:20  
Try starting a two cylinder diesel in the winter with electric start.



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Jon Hagen

01-12-2007 20:42:11




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 Re: What is a pony............the best that's what in reply to buickanddeere, 01-12-2007 16:12:44  
Now that sounds silly. If fumble fingers joe is not capable of doing a simple 12V with alternator electric start conversion,how would you imagine he could handle rebuilding that complicated lump of a pony engine. With any kind of reasonable care,a tractor battery will last 10 years or more. My 20+ year old 4450 and two 855 Cummins powered Steigers are still on their second set of batteries.



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bill mar

01-12-2007 18:19:03




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 Re: What is a pony............the best that's what in reply to buickanddeere, 01-12-2007 16:12:44  
Rebuilding a pony with off the shelf parts is one thing.Trying to fix a thrown rod,busted crank,and destroyed castings is another.



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buickanddeere

01-12-2007 18:56:50




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 Re: What is a pony............the best that's what in reply to bill mar, 01-12-2007 18:19:03  
There are plenty of core engines around to repair. New rods, pistons and sleeves are at the dealer. Busted cases are very rare due to aluminium rods. The problem is the operator. Seldom was the oil changed or the fuel valve shut off. The oil either ran low or was diluted thin with gasoline. And when the oil turned milkshake colour. The operator kept on running the engine with coolant in the oil. Instead of changing the water pump seal.

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nballen

01-12-2007 15:23:10




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 Re: What is a pony?? in reply to riggsjr, 01-12-2007 15:14:59  
The very small (pretend) horse has been ejected thrown off detached from the property and is wandering down the roadside.


j/k



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John S-B

01-12-2007 15:21:53




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 Re: What is a pony?? in reply to riggsjr, 01-12-2007 15:14:59  
A pony it referring to a pony motor, a small gasoline motor used to start a bigger motor instead of an electrical starter motor. Generally 2 cylinder John Deeres had this arrangement as far as tractors go, but I've also seen them on other heavy equipment. Mostly older machinery had this. The pony motors are removed when the tractors are upgraded to an electrical starter.



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Bob

01-12-2007 15:20:22




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 ONE possible meaning... in reply to riggsjr, 01-12-2007 15:14:59  
John Deere 2-cylinder diesels, older Cat diesels, and a few old gassers (certain IH Moguls, IIRC) had a small gasoline engine you starter first, and then it started the "big engine", much as the electric starter on your car does.

These starting engines are often called "Ponies", or "Pups", or certain other names best not mentioned here, when they refused to start!



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Jon Hagen

01-12-2007 20:24:38




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 Re: ONE possible meaning... in reply to Bob, 01-12-2007 15:20:22  
I question the value of that complicated pony motor setup on those old Deere diesels for 90% of normal use.
I base that on what I saw at an auction sale a few years ago. On the sale was a well used 820 with the pony motor replaced by a steel plate to close the top of the Diesel crank case. On this plate was welded the mounts for a Delco Diesel truck type starter and a little battery box with a grp 22 car battery that was connected to the starter. I knew the tractor had not been started for the near freezing spring half day I had been at the sale, and I was really curious if that tractor would start, especially with that tiny grp 22 battery. When the 820's time came to sell,the owner pulled the compression release and hit the starter,the engine spun up instantly and lit off the instant he released the decompression lever.

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Bob

01-12-2007 21:15:34




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 Re: ONE possible meaning... in reply to Jon Hagen, 01-12-2007 20:24:38  
I've owned an E.S. 730 diesel and an ES 830.

Both started RIGHT NOW, as long as the batterys were good.

For multiple starts in a day, the direct ES saves a LOT of time, as long as all is in order.

I've read quite a bit about folks putting modern gear-reduction starters, but have never been around a setup like that.

A neighbor still uses a "pony start" 720, and I have to tune it up a bit once in a while for him.

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riggsjr

01-12-2007 15:30:51




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 Re: ONE possible meaning... in reply to Bob, 01-12-2007 15:20:22  
Thanks....



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