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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Diesel Injectors

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Formerly PaMike

03-14-2007 10:04:31




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Has anyone actually sent out injectors to be tested and found them to be ok? I had my 1755 apart so I sent them out just to be checked since I didnt know how old they were. They were all "bad" even though the tractor ran fine. We have a 656 I just tore apart for a miss that I think is an injector. 5 cylinders were firing, 1 wasnt firing all the time. A different shop this time says all the injectors are bad. 2 were marginal at best. Whats the deal. Do these things go out of spec in the first year but work ok for the next 20??

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NC Wayne

03-14-2007 19:34:21




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 Re: Diesel Injectors in reply to Formerly PaMike, 03-14-2007 10:04:31  
Working on diesels for a living I have had injectors that tested "good" but if I'm building an engine or working on a customers machine their gonna be rebuilt if their not right. Whatever the cost, having the injectors right and knowing it, is a small price to pay vs the the customer having a problem with the engine after I leave. I may know that a "good" injector is OK to use and many people understand exactly what's going on in their engine and would understand that too BUT typically there's a serious lack of knowledge and all they know is how to start and run the machine. That lack of knowledge is what's dangerous to those of us in the business because their not understanding automatically makes any problem fall right on my shoulders. In that case it's not so much about the liability as it is the customer only knows you worked on his machine and then he still had problems after you left. We all know a "bad experience" will get more talk time to his buddies than a good experience, and that in turn leads to a bad reputation for the man that did the job even though it's underserved because it was created by an unknowledgable customer and not something actually done wrong. That said, "Bad" injectors and tractor not running don't always go together. "Bad" injectors be anything from it leaking, a bad spray pattern, worn internals,worn tip, low popping pressure because of one of the above, etc, etc. This can can cause all sorts of things from excessive fuel usage, excessive smoke, hard starting, uneven wear on engine parts, holes burned in pistons, etc etc etc. In the case of a fuel shop, their i the same boat I'd be in whe it comes to the customer. An injector has a certain spec range it should be in and it's their job to put the injector within that range for the customer, unless you specifically tell them not to. Thing is most customers aren't knowledgable enough to tell them that their injectors are "good enough" to run (or they wouldn't have taken them to the shop in the first place) so it's left up to the shop to make that judgement. Once again if the engine has problems after the the injectors leave the shop then the liability and bad rep is gonna get laid on the shop, not the customer that told them not to repair them. Look at it like this, do you usually take other things to a repair shop and tell them to "fix it half" way and that'll be good enough? Injectors are the same way,if they don't check to spec a fuel shop is gonna fix them right, or not at all, unless you specifically tell them not to. Yes there may be miscommunications at times that wind up costing someone alot of money and though there was a miscommunication, the shop was simply doing the job right to cover their rears. Believe me I've dealt with the same guys for enough years I've heard the horror stories of the things blamed on them I know where their coming from. In the end it all comes down to an old saying,"if a job's worth doing it's worth doing right". All these guys are trying to do is to do their job right...

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steelfronts

03-14-2007 14:49:30




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 Re: Diesel Injectors in reply to Formerly PaMike, 03-14-2007 10:04:31  
It seems like everytime I take parts in they are always shot too. We even joke about how the engine possibly runs before we spend $$$ on the injectors. However the last set from a 660 D282 came back with a clean bill of health no charge. The problem is that the repair shop has to return them back to the customer at specs. They cant do a will work job or when it doesnt work they are the bad guys.A customer will forget the price if its a good job but will also badmouth the shop for ever if its a bad one.

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jdemaris

03-14-2007 13:36:14




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 Re: Diesel Injectors in reply to Formerly PaMike, 03-14-2007 10:04:31  
There's a big difference when checking an injector - between "new performance" and "still working - but not for long." With many diesels, they will sound fine until the injectors are just about completely worn out. So, you cannot assume - that injectors pulled from a good running engine are okay. On the other hand, I've tested injectors with a lot of use and they tested almost like new. Personally, I don't trust anyone anymore unless I know them - when it comes to testing. I worked in a diesel shop for most of my life - but not anymore. Last two sets of injectors I sent out - all tested bad. One set - from my IH B-275 tractor - I gave instructions to check and call me first if bad. They came back, C.O.D. with an over $200 bill for four injectors - that got four new nozzles installed. After that, I bought a new tester and now do them all myself again. You can buy a new tester for $100 - sometimes less. In the long run, it can save you a lot of money. In general, injectors are suppossed to "settle" over time - and the pressure is supposed to drop. Pressure test specs are different for new or used - and you are NOT supposed to shim or adjust old injectors to "new" pressure. Also, over time the seats get hammered. Once that happens, no cleaning with make them "like new" again. But, sometimes, you can clean them up, lap a bit, and extend the life of them. With pencil-injectors - that is pretty-much all you can do. With bigger injectors - especially pintle-type, it's usually best just to change the nozzles with new. I just bought 8 new nozzles - right from Bosch for my GM diesel and they were $5.50 each.

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Formerly PaMike

03-14-2007 17:18:19




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 Re: Diesel Injectors in reply to jdemaris, 03-14-2007 13:36:14  
He said they need to be sent out to have the seats ground. About $110 EACH till it is all said and done....Oh well, what do I really need money for anyway...



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Kevin (FL)

03-14-2007 12:42:40




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 Re: Diesel Injectors in reply to Formerly PaMike, 03-14-2007 10:04:31  
Get a friend that has a test stand and you can test, set and clean them up yourself. All you need to know is the "pop off" pressure. If the tip is fouled, the atomizer holes will be clogged and they'll need to be cleared.



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Mike M

03-14-2007 12:06:55




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 Re: Diesel Injectors in reply to Formerly PaMike, 03-14-2007 10:04:31  
Like alot of stuff it's hard to find a shop you can trust ! I would go down and have them show you why all of them are bad. They very well could all be bad ? If by bad they mean didn't meet specs. and they can clean and adjust them and make them ok again it shouldn't cost too much.For sure get an estimate.



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fixerupper

03-14-2007 17:42:16




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 Re: Diesel Injectors in reply to Mike M, 03-14-2007 12:06:55  
I haven't done business with the diesel shop for some time now but I do realize they have to cover their butts a little more than the local shop does. The guys at the local shop know that I'm really picky and fussy about doing it right, but I'm willing to spend the money to make it that way. Jim



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fixerupper

03-14-2007 10:45:31




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 Re: Diesel Injectors in reply to Formerly PaMike, 03-14-2007 10:04:31  
If I take injectors to the diesel shop, I will be informed by them that they were all bad and had to be replaced, but if I take them to the local tractor repair shop, they will usually just clean them and maybe throw in a couple of shims, and send them home. Sometimes they will find a bad one, but not often. The cleaned ones seem to perform just as well as the new ones. Jim



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Brad in WI

03-14-2007 10:12:38




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 Re: Diesel Injectors in reply to Formerly PaMike, 03-14-2007 10:04:31  
I have a Farmall MD with "bad" injectors They open up at the correct pressure without leaking but when it sprays it does not vaporize it properly. I sort of looks like a garden hose spray instead of fanning it out. by the way the tractor still runs really good.



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