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OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp,

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Markiees

12-12-2007 10:44:27




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Hi, I think my house is wired weird....10 year old house, Once circuit has the following wired into it:
GFC outlets in kitchen, garage outlets, outlets in basement, crawlspace lights and the outlets on the outside of house all wired INTO THE SAME 10 amp breaker.

Breaker trips frequently. Have a little (Maybe 1500 - 2000 watts) electric heater in the garage and cant run it with the 5 strands of Christmas lights on the outside turned on. ALso cant run the dehumidifier in the basement and also run the air compressor in the garage.
Cant run the kitchen microwave and also run the heater in the garage...

Breaker will trip after 2-3 minutes of run time.
What are the reasons for this? Shoudl I have something rewired? What are the consequences of going to a 15 amp breaker and removing the 10 amp? If a breaker trips 50 times, do they get weak?

Blast away....

Thanks!

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dave guest

12-12-2007 20:05:36




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
In my 30+years as electrical contractor in Mich, I have several times had 10 amp breakers show up in orders. You are supposed to catch this and not use them for any residential purpose. On freezers and refrigerators, local inspector 10 years ago would never pass GFCI on these circuits. Reasoning was that any slightly older freezer or refrigeration compressor would cause nuisance tripping. Time to call licensed and insured contractor, please.

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dave guest

12-12-2007 20:05:14




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
In my 30+years as electrical contractor in Mich, I have several times had 10 amp breakers show up in orders. You are supposed to catch this and not use them for any residential purpose. On freezers and refrigerators, local inspector 10 years ago would never pass GFCI on these circuits. Reasoning was that any slightly older freezer or refrigeration compressor would cause nuisance tripping. Time to call licensed and insured contractor, please.

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buickanddeere

12-12-2007 16:21:19




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
Did you just move in? Or have you been living this way for 10 yrs? Maybe time to speak to a lawyer about a general home inspection, electrical inspection and your realestate agent. This maybe another example of a tinkerer 10 yrs ago trying to save money instead of hiring a pro.



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Bus Driver

12-12-2007 15:46:22




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
If the breaker is marked 10K, and it probably is, that is the interrupting rating. It can handle up to 10,000 amperes when opening on a short circuit without any damage to other components of your system. Most 120 volt circuits in a house would not exceed about 5K amps on a short circuit due to a combination of circuit impedance and conductor resistance.



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Mattlt

12-12-2007 12:44:44




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
Is it a Square-D breaker? Is the "10" listed on the handle of the breaker? The amp rating of the breaker is listed on the handle, not the body of the breaker. Many SD breakers have a 10k-something or other listed on the body of the breaker - has nothing to do with the amp rating of the breaker.



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johnand cindy

12-12-2007 12:39:22




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
Call a contractor !!!!! !!!!! !!! You should have at least 2 seperate counter top circuits in the kitchen 20 amp. A seperate GFCI in the garage.Un plug the heater. Get a LICENCED ELECTRICIAN. Stop re-setting the breaker its now weak. I do indrustrial electricial work full time 30 years exp. This is nothing to mess with. Red Dave is correct. Also dedicated circuit in the bathroom GFCI protected. I dont like being harsh this is serious its your family,your home. John

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Steven f/AZ

12-12-2007 11:53:03




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
I also remembered something else about our new house...

The refrigerator has it's own breaker. The dishwasher has its own breaker, the microwave has its own, the washer has its own, the dryer has its own, etc. etc.

Every single major appliance outlet is on its own breaker.

To give you an idea of the amount of wires, this is the main box in our new house (3 bed, 2 bath 1450 square feet):

third party image

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cj3b_jeep

12-13-2007 06:15:25




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Steven f/AZ, 12-12-2007 11:53:03  
Mine makes yours look puny! I have about 7 circuits for the kitchen alone, 3 for the upstairs bathroom, one for each bedroom on AFCI breakers, two for the downstairs bathroom, 2 for the laundry room, about 5 for the house lights, two for the outside outlets one for the dining room, three for the living room, 1 for the garage, the list goes on and on. I've never even seen a 10 amp breaker, 10 amps might handle a clock radio and perhaps a T.V.

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Red Dave

12-12-2007 11:42:29




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
"Have a little (Maybe 1500 - 2000 watts) electric heater in the garage" Hold on right there.
That "little" heater will draw from 12.5 to almost 17 amps. That is about all you should put on one circuit. Then you want to put it the same circuit with a microwave? Modern microwaves run at 700 to 1000 watts.

"ALso cant run the dehumidifier in the basement and also run the air compressor in the garage" The dehumidifier has a compressor very much like a freezer or refrigerator. It should not be on the same circuit with an air compressor.

"If a breaker trips 50 times, do they get weak?" Yes, a breaker can change characteristics after that many trips.

A 10 amp breaker would be a special order, not commonly used. Are you sure it is 10 amps? I would be very surprised to find one in a 10 year old house.

I see at least 2 problems. One, it sounds like you do not have enough circuits to properly segregate your loads. Two, it sounds like your expectations for how much can safely be put on each circuit are unrealistic.

I strongly urge you to have a qualified electrician check your breakers and circuits. It may save you from having a fire and/or getting yourself or somebody else killed.

I don't think you should tackle this yourself.

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KEB1

12-12-2007 11:42:04




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
You desparately need to have an electrician take a look at that. First off, the kitchen outlets should be on their own 20 amp circuit (actually, there should be two 20 amp circuits to a kitchen, one is probably running the refrigerator), even if you have to run new 12 guage wire. Garage outlets should also be on their own circuit, preferrably 20 amp. Outside outlets, crawl space lights, etc., are probably legal on a single 15 amp circuit.

Effort to fix depends on how the wiring was strung. If each area has a separate feeder but they're all tied together on a single breaker at the breaker panel, then all you would need to do is to put in additional breakers & separate them. If they're strung together as a single circuit, you'll probably need to do some re-wiring.

Keith

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KEB1

12-12-2007 11:44:09




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to KEB1, 12-12-2007 11:42:04  
PS - this is exactly why I prefer to do my own work. I don't think I've ever lived in a house that I didn't find multiple code violations. How this stuff gets past inspectors is beyond me.

Keith



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John T

12-12-2007 11:51:03




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to KEB1, 12-12-2007 11:44:09  
Keith, I believe we have discussed this tricity stuff before. Must have lousy inspectors out there I guess lol. I bet such wouldnt get past my ol Michigan inspector buddy Maurie..... ..

Yall take care

JT



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John T

12-12-2007 11:37:32




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
Markies, Thats INDEED a "Weird" system of any branch circuit and is certainly NOT how I would have designed it let alone potential NEC violations !!!!! !!!!

I will try n address your questions:

Q What are the reasons for this? A Cuz its one screwed up wiring plannnnn Q Shoudl I have something rewired?
A YESSSSS SS by a qualified licensed electrician

Q What are the consequences of going to a 15 amp breaker and removing the 10 amp?
A If the branch circuit wiring is all at least
14 Gauge yes you can install a 15 amp breaker and if its 12 gauge then a 20 amp breaker (More typical household branch circuit wiring)

Q Breaker will trip after 2-3 minutes of run time.
What are the reasons for this? A CUZ ITS DOING ITS JOB AND PREVENTING AN OVERLOAD N OVERHEATING WHICH COULD BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN..... A Thermal magnetic breaker senses a continued high current n is designed to trip out exactly how its doing.

Q If a breaker trips 50 times, do they get weak?
A Its possible cuz they arent really designed to serve as switches with lots of use although they should be excecised now n then

Heres the deal n why it trips: If the breaker is a 10 amp, the maximum continuous constant current draw allowed on that branch circuit is only 8 amps and that computes to only 960 watts of a continuous load. Once you start pulling 10 amps or so for too long the thermal is gonna heat up !!!!!

John T Long Retired electrical design engineer so a lil rusty on the NEC buttttt t not so rusty that I dont recognize what you have as a wierd system to say the least.....

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Jon Hagen

12-12-2007 11:18:20




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
Sometimes contractors do stupid and dishonest things to save a dollar. My neice in her 3 year old contractor built and wired house, found the seldom used freezer in the surface level garage a putrid mass of rotting food. They checked and had no power to the freezer. a check of all breakers found none tripped. The called an electrician who found that the ground level garage electrical socket was connected to the protected side of a basement bathroom GFCI unit that was tripped. The electrical contractor saved himself the cost of a seperate GFCI unit for the garage and cost my relatives many hundreds of $$ for the ruined food and freezer.

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John T

12-12-2007 11:42:39




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Jon Hagen, 12-12-2007 11:18:20  
Just For the record n maybe can help someone, Its okay to have an otherwise non accessible dedicated (for freezer ONLY) receptacle say hid behind the freezer there in the garage to power IT ONLY AND NOTTTTT TT be GFCI to protect the freezer from accidental minor nuisance tripping and ruin all the contents. Or at least it used to be unless the NEC has changed. I havent designed for years so am behind but think thats stilllll ll the case.

John T long retired EE

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Gary From Muleshoe

12-12-2007 11:13:55




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
I have run in to that problem here, seems they just want to cut corners everywhere when they build now days. A friend of mine had all his bathrooms (3) and his furnace on one 15 amp breaker. While two bedrooms were each on a breaker (20 amps) by themselves. If his furnace was running and he turned a bathroom light on it popped the break. I put the furnace on with one of the bedrooms and his problems were solved. I am by no means a professional electrician but I do have some friends that are that I can get info from to do my own work.

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Goose

12-12-2007 11:09:55




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
I go with Steven. There's something wrong here. That's an awful lot to put on a 10 amp breaker.

You need to have a licensed electrician check out at least this circuit, and maybe the entire house.

After we built this house, the whirlpool pump in the bathroom would trip a 20 amp breaker, but it turned out to be a defective breaker. I don't think that's the case here.



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in-too-deep

12-12-2007 11:07:47




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
Yes, your house is wired weird. Very weird and also dangerous. I hope there are more spaces in your breaker panel. If not, you can put a band-aid over the problem by going to a 15 amp breaker, but ONLY if you're sure that all the wires being fed by that breaker are 14 ga. or larger. If I were you, I'd take the cover off the breaker panel and see how many wires come in off that circuit. Try to break em up as much as possible. If there's only one wire coming in, you'll need to find the junction box(es) and split em there. This isn't typically something you want to play with unless you've got some basic electrical experience. Electricians usually give free quotes, especially on something this small. Call around and good luck.

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deano

12-12-2007 11:05:13




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
10Amp is highly unusual. If 14ga 15A is ok, 12ga 20A is ok.

Suggest microwave, air compressor should be on there own circuits and garage should have a couple if you use it as a workshop. IMHO



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IaGary

12-12-2007 10:52:03




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
All depends on how heavy or what gauge the wire is.

If it is 14 gauge wire you can go to a 15 amp breaker.

If it is 12 gauge wire you can go to 20 amp breaker.

Would think it is a least 14 gauge.

15 amp breaker will just barly run that 1500 watt heater without anything else on the line.

Where do the lines all connect up?

Maybe you can run some more feed lines to the junction box. And then split into more curcuits.

Do you have room for more breakers in your breaker box.

Somebody really screwed up when they put so much on one 10 amp curcuit.

Gary

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IaGary

12-12-2007 10:59:48




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to IaGary, 12-12-2007 10:52:03  
I want to add one more thing.

When ever any of you build a new house don't let them use any 14 gauge wire for your outlets.

Use all 12 gauge with 20 amp breakers so you can run that heater or shop vac or other big wattage tools.

Its even questionable on the lights to use 14 gauge.

Gary



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huntingreen

12-12-2007 21:09:21




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to IaGary, 12-12-2007 10:59:48  
What is the problem putting 15 amp circuits in bedrooms? In a modern day house with central heat and air there is no load to speak of in bedrooms. I have wired hundreds of houses like that and never had a problem. If you split the circuits up like you should and put the 20 amp circuits where they are supposed to be in the house there should be no problems.It was not such a big deal to use 12 ga. wire when it ws $ 18 per 250 ft roll versus $ 11 for 14 ga. But it is a big cost difference now and if you are running 3 way switch legs it gets to be really expensive. Also the number of conductors you can put in a box is greatly influenced by the gage of wire. You would think 2.5 cu in for 12 ga would not matter but you can't put (2) 12 ga wires in an 18 cu in box and then run your 12/3 g for your 3 way switch leg. You have 10 cu in for the 2 12 wires another 7.5 for the 12/3-g and 4.5 for the device installed in the box for a total of 22 cu in. Just my 2 cents.

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Don-Wi

12-13-2007 02:46:34




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to huntingreen, 12-12-2007 21:09:21  
I can think of a few draws that would add up really fast. IN my bedroom I have a mini fridge, TV, VCR/DVD player, DirecTV box, whole bunch of lamps (4 that I can think of right now), alarm clock, rechargable shaver, phone charger, battery charger, water bed heater, and the occasional vacume cleaner. I'm sure there's a combo somehwere in there that could trip a 15 amp breaker, and mine's not even the master bedroom.

Donovan from Wisconsin

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in-too-deep

12-12-2007 11:11:08




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to IaGary, 12-12-2007 10:59:48  
Yup, I agree. One thing I have noticed though, the cheap outlets that are available ($.49 and packs of 10) are only rated for 15A. The 20A ones get expensive. I wonder what codes say about running 12 ga. from a 20 A breaker to an outlet that's stamped 15A...



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John T

12-12-2007 11:48:12




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to in-too-deep, 12-12-2007 11:11:08  
I agree with you, its permissible to use a 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp branch circuit, but I also would use a 20 amp. They are just better and rated to handle more current n the resulting heat. Better safe then sorry huh

John T



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Steven f/AZ

12-12-2007 10:47:51




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 Re: OT; electrical question, breaker in house - 10 amp, in reply to Markiees, 12-12-2007 10:44:27  
I am NOT an electrician, but I can tell you this much: We are currently having a new house built and I don't think anywhere in our new house is there more than three or four outlets wired into one breaker - and certainly nothing from room to room wired into a single breaker.

Personally, I think you need to have a qualified (licensed, bonded, insured) electrician come take a look at your house...

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